I think it better to say that the German shepherd dog od the late 1800's and early 1900's were smaller than the show lines of today.

My original question, which hasn't been answered yet, related to the height and weight of the champions during the 1960's. I asked not for a debate on the past and present characteristics of showline German shepherds.

The discussion of man's domination and manipulation over nature can be discussed in another form. That topic spans many different fields including the desire to "make" a dog conform to a certain size, weight, slant, etc.

I will ask my original question again:

Does anyone know the height and weight of the champions GSDs during the 1960's? (That's all I want to know).

This is called a DISCUSSION forum not a Question and Answer forum. That means you are going to have to live with people making replies that don't answer your question. If you can't handle that then do the research on your own.

This site has several pictures of German Shepherds by people or objects and could give you an idea of how large older shepherds were. It seems that some of the older shepherds were actually larger. A 1959 dog is estimated to be 115 lbs. in one of the photo captions. http://royalair.org/pasttopresent.htm

this is a tough one. How many GSD champions are produced in a year? I'm sure AKC has that number but it is highly unlikely they keep weights on record for those champions going back through the years.

Any sample you get will be skewed. I think a better idea would be guessing size based upon height at the shoulder (also not a great measurement) and length of body. These things can be guessed at from photos not with the same accuracy as the increased topline slope on dogs but will give you an idea of size differences.

I've been looking at photos lately of my own breeds and trying to put a finger on what happened in dog breeding in the mid 70s. If you look at historical photos for a great many breeds there is a radical change in appearance right around 73-77'. Sadly I wasn't born then and it's been difficult to find manuals about schools of thought involving dog breeding of that time.

Lewie,
If you're asking about the individual dogs you mentioned, that kind of info will be hard to track down. Maybe a long established breeder can help you out.

But what I really think is that your question is rather a moot point any ways. Because just as today the sport people of yesteryear probably paid little or no attention to size or weight. They only need to be big enough to clear the jumps, after that it's attitude. It isn't after all, an AKC dog show.
You may have one champion that is smallish, and another thats largish, (shrug) they both do the work equally well.

Some people like bigger dogs, others have reasons they like smaller lighter dogs. But both animals are tops in the work arena.

The SV may be able to help you.
Randy

Well said Randy.

Thanks Randy. I have spoken with Fred Lanting and have my answer. The early 60's had smaller champions until Fran Jo. In the mid to late 60's the dogs were at the upper limits of the standard and some over; some judges were more leniant than others when it came to size. The influence of Fran Jo changed everything. I am very sorry if I upset some folks with my question. But I said in the begining I had a question - not that I want to have a discussion about slope backs and genotypes/phenotypes, although I do find Norman's points well taken. At least he is cival about things. And I appreciate randy's diplomatic answer. I love larger straight back German shepherds and wanted some help with a question. I'm open for discussion now that I have my question answered. Besides, it was suggested to me to ask this question on this form. I'll think twice before I do that again.

Lewie,
You shouldn't go away mad.
I'm sure if anyone could have answered your question directly, they would have. And I kind of think the digression into the body stature a normal course as the standards have changed so dramatically over the last thirty or (yikes) fourty years, so in some ways it's next to impossible to start comparing todays champions and those of the 60's in terms of size and weight.
I don't think anyone meant to put off your question or hijack the thread.

I read a bit about a couple of the dogs on your list but nothing on size or weights for either. And I ran out of ideas on where to look without doing major research. Kinda an interesting exercise though, very educational on the linage of some famous dogs through to the 80's and 90's.

Yeah yeah, the larger GSDs are very impressive.
Personally, thou I prefer a little lighter, my cut off point is probably right around 90 lbs., I think the agility factor really starts to become a case of diminishing returns after that. Thats only mho though.
Well that's another side trip.

Glad you found an answer to your question.
Randy

 Quote: lewie phillips

.... I am very sorry if I upset some folks with my question. ... it was suggested to me to ask this question on this form. I'll think twice before I do that again.

This thread isn't an example of "upset." Trust me on this.

 Quote: randy allen

.... I'm sure if anyone could have answered your question directly, they would have. And I kind of think the digression into the body stature a normal course as the standards have changed so dramatically over the last thirty or (yikes) fourty years, so in some ways it's next to impossible to start comparing todays champions and those of the 60's in terms of size and weight. ... I don't think anyone meant to put off your question or hijack the thread.

Ditto.

Thanks Randy. I have just about exhausted my sources for research so I thought asking in here may help.