Ken, what are your plans for the dog? Pet, competition obedience, Schutzhund?

I ask, because each disipline has its own level of pressure. For my pet dogs, or my obedience only dog, I use compulsion for two commands only, which I back up with an ecollar: recall, and 'leave it'. These two are important to me, and can be the difference between life and death. For these I set my dog up to make a mistake, they are at the proofing stage, and I want to have them make a wrong decision in a controlled situation. Sitting and downing on command. etc. are not crimes, and they are not punished as such. For my 'schutzhund' dog, I can increase the pressure a bit, but only because she has enough prey drive to relieve the stress of training. Which leads to the maxim, which should be engraved in every trainer's heart: As you increase the level of pressure on the dog, you must increase the value of the reward. It must be fair to the dog.

All of this being said, I don't think your dog is ready for any of this yet. He is a puppy. Dog training is not rocket science, but it ain't kindergarden, either. Read books on operant conditioning, canine and human psychology, learning theory, clicker training (the clicker is great for teaching timing), drive theory. Get Ed's tapes with Bernard Flinks. Very adaptable to any situation, with dogs that have prey or food drive. Get the book "Schutzhund: Theory and training methods" by Barwig and Hillard, which was my first introduction to drive theory, and how to modify compulsion with drive levels and temperment of the dog. Excellent book, IMO.

Dog training, and doing it right, is hard work. It requires a clear mind, a fair hand, and a willing dog. Take the hard road, and don't use compulsion yet. It is very easy (well with most dogs) to force it to do what you say, an instant response to a command 100% of the time, with nothing but your authourity to back it up. I could get all my dogs to that level of obedience in under a month. Yet, I would have slaves, not companions. It takes years, Ken, to take your dog to the level of obedience you seem to want, and have a willing partner, a dog who has learned the joy of the work.

Read, learn, PLAY with your dog. the rest comes with experience and the knowledge YOU bring to the team.

Thus spake Zarthrustra. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ken, to me there is a profound difference in formal obedience training with harsh corrections and "house manners" a puppy should have if he is going to be in your home (i.e. jumping on people, furniture, etc.) With that said, you can and should correct undesirable behaviors. The key is to be consistant, firm (not harsh), and most of all be fair. Set your dog up so he has a chance to have more successes then constant failures. In regards to teaching obedience and the example you gave, you took a dog that you "assume" knows the "down" command and instead of introducing a "mimimal" amount of distraction to "proof" the command, you took him to a place that on a scale of 1 to 10 is a definate level 10 distraction for a puppy and expected him to hold a long down. On top of this, you were not in position to instantly correct your dog for his mistake of breaking the command. Doesn't matter that you could "see" him. This serves absolutley no purpose whatsoever in your efforts to train him. One thing I picked up from Bernhard Flinks is that you cannot train a dog you cannot correct. So the dog is either on a leash where you can instantly correct his behavior or wearing an ecollar, which IMO your dog is much too young for. You mention you were shocked that your dog refused to down when you came back out and told him to down. Not surprising to me, the dog is in a strange environment, level 10 distractions, not in drive, and no reward or reason to obey your command. At this stage in your pup's life, all I would be concerned about is just getting him used to new environments, socializing him, thus building up confidence. You can put more emphasis on commands later. If your going to train a dog with this amount of distraction you need to at least have food on hand, or his favorite toy to put him in "drive" so that he is willing to obey because he is going to get "paid" for his good effort. Sorry for the lengthy post, hope this makes some sense. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

John,

it does make absolute sense, and you are right that I didn't have anything to reward him with. He does have tremendous food drive and 90% of the time when I work him now, he is rewarded with food and/or praise.

I guess I didn't think that being at the store was too much of a distraction. When I walk him, I try to take him to new places and do a little work here and there so he gets a feeling that regardless of what is going on, he should feel good.

I'm not overly anxious to start wailing on the dog if that's what you might gather from my posts. He's been pretty successful and I'm really happy and surprised at how well he is doing. I'm really excited about it, and I'm scared of turning into a downward spiral.

I guess I will just keep concentrating on the good, working the good for now and hopefully within a few weeks when I can get my grubby little hands on that other video it will help me further.

I appreciate everyone's input. I do see it was a mistake I made...possibly many---and that's about it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

edit: BTW: he is on leash 100% of the time. Outside I use a long dragline when we work, and most of the time I don't need to hold onto it because he sticks close to me (IF we're in a safe environment away from traffic/people etc). Inside, I have a short dragline for him.

Cool, sounds like you are on the right path my friend! Happy training! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ken, first I want to commend you for your persistance and your willingness to do what is right for your dog. You have come to a great place for resources; I wish I knew about this site with my first dog! I will try to answer you questions, based upon my own experiences, but I'm still pretty new to training as well. But since I've gone from a no training approach to a very heavy handed compulsion based approach to something in between, perhaps you can learn something from the mistakes that I made.

1. jumping- I would personally discourage jumping separetaly. There are several threads that deal with this. I use the word off, it means four paws on the ground.
2. pup not receptive to commands- no I wouldn't stop giving commands. You win the war by winning the battles. I never give commands that I am not prepared to enforce, through positive or negative reinforcment. Always have a reserve, when you issue a command. Remember, you must control the situation, and set up the dog for success, but first you must think about why the dog is refusing. Remember, dogs are self serving. So, if the dog is not receptive to commands, up the ante a little. This is where bonding and teaching your dog that you are the next best thing since rawhide really pays off.
3. corrections- the only thing I can say about this is this- you must learn to read your dog. and when applying compulsion, the reward must be of relative value, and the timing must be good; compulsion given within 3 seconds(preferrably MUCH sooner), and the reward the instant the dog corrects the behavior. Personally, I see compulsion as an expression of the rule, the punishment must fit the crime. The crimes in my pack are: not coming when called, interpack aggression, not leaving it. You must determine the things that you do not tolerate under any circumstances, and punish accordingly. Did you realize that there is more to punishment than pronging? there is a soft no, harsh no, removal of attention from owner, all the way on up to ecollar on high. I would use the lower levels of compulsion- a soft or harsh no, or non reward-as a guidance tool, and save the prong for the serious crimes, which would be not coming when called at this point. See it like this, punishment, in the early stages, should be a way for teaching the dog the behviours not to do, so that it is easier for the dog to perform the correct behaviour to win a reward. And your dog should never be off leash until he has mastered the recall, under heavy distraction.

I don't have the two tapes you mentioned, so I am unable to comment on them.

I hope this helps, Ken. Good luck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Talk about long winded <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

Ken
Just to let you know the advice you've been given is great.
I recognize myself in your post. The best advice I got on this board was from Bob Scott. "Too much, Too Soon" He told me the same thing you have been told. I really thought about what he said and realized the mistakes I was making. I backed way off, let my puppy be a puppy and both of us are much happier now. I still fight the tendency to push but now I recognize it and tell myself to slow down. If I get frustrated I know it's my fault and evaluate what I'm doing. (Usually expecting to much) I have learned their really is no rush. Zak and I are going to be together for along time. Take the great advice you've been given and I guarantee that a year from now you and you pup will be alot happier. Sounds like a great pup. Good Luck

Melissa has some good points, however 3 seconds for a correction is too long. I believe it is more like 1.3 seconds to be considered effective and even that is pushing the envelope. If you wait too long to give the correction, the dog ends up being corrected for something entirely different from what you intended. For instance: You tell your dog to sit, he sits for a couple of seconds then stands up and comes to you. Rather then correcting him the INSTANT he stood up, you wait until he is approaching you and then begin telling him "No" or whatever. Now the dog thinks he is being corrected for "coming to you" rather then being corrected for breaking the sit. This is why timing is so very critical when you train. The correction has to be delivered in the precise moment the dog breaks the command. One thing I will agree with Melissa on, is that you do need to figure out what you want from your dog in terms of your training goals. In my mind, I'm always thinking about Schutzhund so my brain automatically thinks about obedience in terms of training a dog in "drive". May not be the right approach to people just looking for a well behaved house pet. That's why during the "teaching" phase I like to use food and toy's instead of the old yank & crank method. JMO

i think I'd like to have more than just a well behaved housepet, but hopefully if I'm not able to make more than a well behaved house pet, he'll be a VERY WELL behaved housepet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

if that makes any kind of sense...sounds like a tongue twister.

I may try my hand at some kind of events in the future if I feel like it's feasible, and unless someone has some other advice, I don't see much harm in ATTEMPTING to train for obedience--and not persuing it.

Melissa
I was with you right up until, save the prong for the serious stuff like not comming when called. Isn't five months to young for a prong. If the pup is on the long line or leash how can he not come? I know nothing about boxers, is breed a factor?
Bob