Quote: Jenni Williams

My little ones eat premade most of the time.....

What do they eat the rest of the time?

It shouldn't have more liver than bone, according to what they tell me, though I have never analyzed it myself. FWIW, it does not appear to, and I *think* I can see some of what it organ meat...darker, redder, ya know...just looks like liver. Can't be sure, of course.

Feeding a dog that small is MUCH harder; just think of dividing all the supplements into a dose suitable for a 6lb-er. Yes, you can rotate day by day, but from my experience (which is 9 years and 4 tiny dogs) it's a p.i.t.a...and I never was satisfied they were getting a good enough variety. I like what I see w/the Nature's Variety so far. I also liked Bravo and then added THK to it. Admittedly, it's probably more of a pain b/c I have huge dogs and tiny ones, and a few in between; making ground ratios for big is easy...making ground ratios for small is easy...but when you try to do both simultaneously, it's a pain.

I can't remember what Turbo is...or how old. Not to go way off topic, but Pitcairn states a strong corellation between bad teeth and vaccines...could be another reason why all mine have clean teeth. I am a notoriously bad mommy in the vaccine department. My Mom's Cocker (who is 11.5) has not-so-perfect teeth, and that's all we can blame for it. She eats raw, has for years and years, but was vaccinated for several years. I will try to find the Pitcairn excerpt.

I do think it's probable that not all dogs produce the same amount of tooth cleaning enzymes, for a zillion different reasons. I guess I'm just lucky. Some of my dogs' teeth are worn and some are broken (dreading the day I have to crown canines,LOL), but they are build-up free...and mine don't get RMBs nearly as much as they should. I buy the stores out, but w/6 dogs, they don't last that long. Tripe is excellent for teeth, too.

Even my big ones frequently get ground food, as I have access to large quantities of it. I think some dogs' systems need an extra kick...be it probiotics, prozyme (and similar products), etc. to get their systems in tip-top shape and undo prior kibble and/or vaccine damage and get their teeth sparkling w/no intervention. Whatever, I'm thankful; I don't have time to brush all those teeth, lol.

Oh, and what do they eat the rest of the time? Parakeets.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

It shouldn't have more liver than bone, according to what they tell me,

I thought that ingredients were listed by weight, most to least.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

...and mine don't get RMBs nearly as much as they should.

But they are still getting them. What are we talking? A few months in between?

There is still a big hole in the enzyme theory for me.

Take away the fact that Turbo had his last vax's over 3 years ago. Take away any hereditary factors for bad teeth. The only places on Turbo's teeth, and my late dog's teeth that had brown spots were the places that food couldn't scrub. Saliva could get there, but food couldn't scrub in between effectively.

Then there are still the raw fed dogs with dirty canines. No, I don't know any personally, but I don't figure the posters on forums and yahoo list are going to lie about it.

Marissa, sorry for the derailing of your thread.

INGREDIENTS: Rabbit, Raw Ground Rabbit Bone, Pork Fat, Pork Liver, Pork Heart, Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed, Chicken Eggs, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Olive Oil, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove.

Should have more bone than liver, but again, I have never analyzed it myself. One formula (beef, I think) shows more liver than bone...but none of the others. Hmm.

My Mom's dog hasn't had shots in about 7 years...yet she still needs her teeth cleaned and chews RMBs all the time. Go figure. Some is genetics, no doubt. I have terrible teeth...so does my Dad. Constantly needing something or other. I am not up to date on my shots, and I rarely chew bones anymore, either.

My dogs easily have gone months between bones...and I mean recreational bones, not food. Not a good thing, but I have to be honest. I order in bulk every several months, spend a few grand at a time, and if I run out, well, then they have to wait until next shipment.

Are you positive that it's build-up on your dogs' teeth and not missing enamel from wear? I was a bit upset over Mia's teeth a while back...brown spots at the tops of her teeth, and on the back of some. Didn't look exactly like build-up, but I couldn't get them "clean" either. Holistic vet said it was damage; they would never be white b/c of what she'd done to them, but that they were in gorgeous condition as far as health and cleanliness.

It is also theorized w/much support that individuals' ph levels contribute to these differences. I do have a cat whose teeth are not as clean as my others'...and coincidentally, he has auto-immune problems due to vaccinosis, and I am always trying to get his ph levels more acidic and less alkaline. Supposedly, more acidic= cleaner teeth.

Yes, it's a bit of a derailment...but I find this stuff interesting. Sorry, Marisa.

teeth in dogs are also affected by genetics and the composition of the saliva . My dogs are raw fed, have been since 1994 and Raine gets crud on her teeth, I scale it off myself but she has definite build up. I can only imagine what it would be like if she had been fed kibble. I think the benefit of whole RMB foods for dogs (as opposed to premade) is more psychologically healthy for them but I really don't think it makes that much difference on their teeth in my experience.

back to the regular discussion....

There is also a (genetic) tendency in some dogs to under-produce saliva. Saliva washes off food before it hardens into plaque. The outside surfaces of the teeth are the most affected by this low production of saliva.

So I watch the teeth anyway, and I use the squirty-rinse stuff for the outside tooth surfaces, and brushing if needed.

I've only been able to judge by my limited experience and by the research and study of Dr. Tom Lonsdale. Also by some articles that I have read about the dental health of omnivores/carnivores in zoos.

Even the pet food companies use to recommend a bone weekly (I think that was how often) for dental health.

I still feel it is more than just psychological.

 Quote: Merck Veterinary Manual

The soft, hamburger-like consistency of commercial diets can result in excess calculus deposits and periodontal disease if hard or unprocessed items are not also provided. All cats fed a soft diet should receive bones with some meat intact twice weekly.

 Quote: Merck Veterinary Manual

Rib bones can be given twice weekly to promote dental health.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182414.htm

This is just one of a few sources, and by no means the be all end all.

Last post, I swear I'll let this thread go back on track now.

This is about a position that chewing on bones is a dental aid as well as a psychological benefit...?

Yeah, I think so too.

BUT it depends on the nature of the bone-chewing. I don't give recreational bones, but a dog who scrapes off the meat and tendons is also helping to scrape off plaque. And a dog who chews into necks and backs is doing the same thing on a smaller scale -- mechanically scraping off debris.

But many dogs eat their RMBs in a gulping way, with very little dental contact except for any initial tearing.

I do see dental improvement when I switch a pre-owned dog from commercial food to fresh raw food. So far, I have always seen at least some improvement.

I have one senior scheduled for 02/26 to have a dental exam, cleaning, x-rays -- the whole thing. When he came to me, his teeth were a disaster. Now they are better. He needs this dental procedure, but, as Cindy says: "Raine gets crud on her teeth, I scale it off myself but she has definite build up. I can only imagine what it would be like if she had been fed kibble."