So that's the majority of my advice for people considering a PPD, I hope ya'll find it helpful and that it stimulates some good conversation.

 Quote: Will

The real question arises when you are dealing with a determined attacker - then all bets are off. Most dogs can be driven off by a determined attacker and in that case you need one of the rare dogs with the willingness to engage and fight - and this will give you enough time to escape, call for help, or get to your firearms and deal with the problem in a more serious manner.

Will, in your experience, can you tell me a rough percentage of dogs who will actually FIGHT an adult man who is actively fighting them, even causing them substantial pain? I guess I'm surprised (naiive, perhaps) that you make it sound like this is so hard to find. With as many PPDs as are sold every day in this country, I guess I just *assumed* (yeah, I know...) that more dogs would engage and actively fight than actually do.

And if most dogs won't/don't...how the hell do people sell someone a PPD who won't fight an attacker? Good Lord...am I really that lucky to have a dog who escalates the fight the harder someone fights him...equipment or no equipment? Muzzled too? Now, my dog has never had any sport training at all, so he's not equipment-oriented, but I guess I just assumed there were lots of dogs out there like him (although I'm quite biased and think he's the cat's pajamas. LOL!) I really am amazed that someone could sell someone something they call a PPD who they don't KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, WILL engage and FIGHT...in a real situation. What a horrible thing to do to someone- provide such a false sense of security.

 Quote: jenni williams

And if most dogs won't/don't...how the hell do people sell someone a PPD who won't fight an attacker?

Because most PPD buyers have no idea how to test the dog. The shady vendors have the dog bark at a guy in a suit or the sleeve ( so that the dog already knows the helper/decoy and sees the equipment......c'mon, I mean how hard is it to get a dog to bark in that situation? )
Even a very weak dog can be made to look ok in that situation and bingo, the uninformed buyer writes a check for $15k on a dog that is worth 2k at the most.

Very profitable for how little work actually went into a crap dog and since the dog will probably never be tested, the clueless owner is happy ( but living in a fool's paradise ).

The PPD world is a strong example of the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted".

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Will, in your experience, can you tell me a rough percentage of dogs who will actually FIGHT an adult man who is actively fighting them, even causing them substantial pain?

I would say that if you start from strong working lines the percentage would be from 1% to 5% at the max.
Most dogs if really stressed will try to escape, it's what nature intended them to do. The fighters are rare and smart Police vendors snatch those types up quickly leaving few to be found by PPD vendors.

I get that...I mean it's obvious, and I knew there were a lot of crooks, but I guess it just surprises me that there are so few dogs w/real fight. It means there are more crooks than I thought; there are people w/good reputations out there selling PPDs...I guess they have good reputations b/c no one has REALLY put the dog to the test.

People are really too dumb to see if a dog will fight before they sign a check? I can't imagine that. I can see paying $2k for a dog who will bark and act nasty, but for any more than that, don't they want to see some blood? LOL. That was rhetorical.........

No more than 5% eh? Depressing, IMO. I think this points to breeding for the wrong attributes...but don't get me started on that.

I will go home and give my dog with "too much fight" a big hug (which he loathes, LOL). Sport trainers tend to not like his attributes, although most cops think he's just fine. And his Mom loves him.

Jenni,
I'd say that the crooks outnumber the good vendors by a 50 to 1 margin, and if that isn't shocking, I don't know what is.

I think 50 to 1 is about right...but there are LOTS of PPD vendors out there. I have to laugh when I see there pathetic videos...makes me wonder what MY dogs are worth, LMAO.

Do you have any video Jenni? I'd like to see them working. Maybe even in a muzzle.

I will post video of my dog tearing into someone on the internet when hell freezes over. Call me paranoid, but I have seen way too much litigious action involving "dangerous" dogs to ever put my dogs in jeopardy like that. In my city, a dog who FRIGHTENING someone w/an aggressive display is "strike one" out of three to be labeled "vicious."

God forbid my dog ever do something, and all some hungry lawyer has to do is "prove" how dangerous the dog is w/some protection videos....nope. No thank you. I don't even tell my neighbors they know anything besides "sit."

I don't have too many videos...I'm kinda busy when I'm handling a dog fighting an "attacker." And unlike a Sch. field, there aren't 10 people standing around to videotape a surprise scenario. If I can find an old video I think I have of Caleb a few years ago during a staged home invasion, I will email it to you privately. I don't even download them onto a computer; I have them on discs. Yeah, I'm paranoid. But I know someone that had a horror story happen just like this. Youtube vids of a Sch. dog doing his thing...the dog got loose, didn't do a damn thing but scratch someone by jumping up, and all hell broke loose legally b/c of the videos being seen as proof the owner knew the dog was "attack trained."


I need to fix a typo in my last post. There shoud read "their."

 Quote: Will Rambeau

The fighters are rare and smart Police vendors snatch those types up quickly leaving few to be found by PPD vendors.

Will, is this enough pressure on a dog, in a real situation, to be one of the rare fighters?

The guy fought for a sec., but seemed to think better quickly. Or is it too hard to tell with such a brief fight?

Just curious if this dog is a good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFtIXsVoe1w