"She wants nothing to do with him and all to do with me-I think it just drives the bf nuts that no matter hard he tries he just doesn't have that bond."


I just pulled this from the other post about this white GSD. Is it the boyfriend who is maybe the flat tire? Maybe he and the dog just need some good long, long walks to bond.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

... Just keep in mind, this pup is acting like a flat tire with people, and then lighting up when he sees other dogs.
So, he's made it very clear where his allegiances lie.

Letting him around other dogs, would only reward his lack of interest in people, wouldn't you say?

I'm with you. While the bond-building is in process, in fact, nothing would provide fun for this dog but me. Mike's and your posts are my POV too.

And don't forget to BE fun. Playfulness and joy are to a very large extent sent down the leash, just like anxiety and confusion.

The posts about not questioning yourselves and not comparing this dog to any other dog are, IMO, crucial.

I just want to add that my most recent adoption acquisition was seized by the SPCA (bad situation). He was about a year before he joined in with playing (me and the other dogs), but he is now 100% happy, playful, etc. *

And BTW, you mother was just a diversion, a new entertainment, and that was the cause of the whining. I have one sociable-to-a-fault dog who is dying to stay and visit with every human he meets. He's never going to change. But so?

*The year was not a dull, unenthusiastic 12 months followed by - ding! - a new dog. Every week he changed a bit, and those changes were wonderful to see.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/08/2009 01:11 PM)
Edit reason: asterisk

BTW, I believe that roughhousing has proven to be detrimental with this dog, if I recall correctly.

It's not necessary. Have you (or the BF) tried "fetch" in tiny increments, beginning indoors from a very small distance and with a lot of praise (and toy-wiggling)?

Squeeky toys.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

Squeeky toys.

YES!

And wiggly, whether automatic or human-powered.

OH, I just remembered how much fun my girl used to have chasing remote control cars as a pup.

(It actually came in handy when teaching the recall... she'd chase the truck right to my feet).


(Come to think of it... I bet I could incorporate the remote control cars back into our training for the jumps...)

I'm kind of on the fence on having this pup who is already "doggy" spend time playing with another dog; because if his pack drive can be satisfied by that play session it is detrimental to what the OP is trying to achieve.

However; if a plan could be derived where interaction with the human is rewarded by a play session with the other dog; it just might be a means to your end.

I don't know how to explain the science behind it, so all you theorists on behavior please step in to make sense of this . I am thinking in terms of counter conditioning (might be the right term ?); where you change the dog's perspective on interacting with the human from indifference to the actual reward by using his greatest reward, dog time.

You can use food and other motivators but since this pup is already so strongly programmed towards other dogs I think the most success will be achieved if a plan could be put in place that uses that desire.

I wish I could come up with an idea how to do that but I've never been in that situation. The closest I can come up with was when my dog was about 1.5 years old and we were taking a group Agility class.

All he wanted to do was run the course after the other dogs. I couldn't get his attention at all while we waited our turn and he wanted to go with the other dogs. A suggestion from my father worked wonders. He told me to tie the dog away from me and step away from him while other dogs ran. Lo and behold what happened was instead of focusing on the other dogs he started watching me and waiting on me; my coming to get him became his goal and focus; it became the reward.

Of course this is all opinion and I don't know if it can be done but if it is possible maybe someone else would know a way to approach it.

It's a thought... but the dog would have to demonstrate some OB before he could be rewarded.

I think it's honestly easier to recondition the dog to view the handler as the reward, than to set the dog up to understand that if he ignores the other dog and performs, he'll get to spend time with the other dog.

I think a strict, NILIF Pack Structure and bonding program would turn the dog around PDQ.

I agree that it's a great situation to have multiple dogs in a home that get along and are able to interact with one another in a pack like environment. It's how I live with my dogs and it is rewarding in so many ways (I have three + 1-2 others at any given time).

However, I never allow a new puppy (or adult for that matter) to interact much at all with the existing pack, not until that dog and I have developed our own relationship.

This is especially important with a puppy like this guy, who had not been properly socialized with people at the breeder's and who had already become "doggy" as a result of the situation with the older female dog. He clearly saw this adult dog as his pack leader, hence the happy, friendly nature of the pup while still at the breeder's. The ground was swept out from under the puppy at the point of adoption for all he was concerned.

I have raised a couple of GSD puppies like this, and I have raised them almost precisely as Mike and Alyssa outlined above. Once I had established a strong bond with the pup, and I knew without a doubt that this pup saw me as the source of all things awesome, then I would begin allowing more interaction with the rest of my pack. That usually begins with walks together as a group (no interaction allowed, just moving together). The next move is usually to allow the pup to observe training sessions with my other dogs as Michele described, eventually follow by doing a little obedience with the pup while the other dogs are around (understanding that my dogs can reliably be called off of the puppy so as not to interfere).

A couple of suggestions to the OP:

ALWAYS have the pup on leash when he is out of the kennel, and tether him to you guys when you have him out in the house with you .. this will help strengthen your bond with him and prevent him from finding his own fun.

Keep him on a line outdoors.

If you haven't already, learn marker (clicker) training! It works absolute wonders with an insecure dog like this, plus it's a great source of fun for the pup to associate with you guys. As someone mentioned earlier, keep him hungry prior to training, and use the smelliest (i.e. yummiest) treats available ... later on you can use less gross/greasy/smelly things

Take integrating him into the dog pack slowly and patiently. Expect it to take him until he is about 1 year (or a little more) to have bonded with you enough to be let loose with your other dog. It's important to do this one little step at a time, proving to him again and again that you are the pack leader (something he'll pick up on when he watches the way your other dog interacts with you, which is why it's important not to allow him to play blindly with the other dog) therefore strengthening his trust in you as the leader and protector

 Quote: kacie hackett

.... I never allow a new puppy (or adult for that matter) to interact much at all with the existing pack, not until that dog and I have developed our own relationship. ... This is especially important with a puppy like this guy, who had not been properly socialized with people at the breeder's and who had already become "doggy" as a result of the situation with the older female dog. He clearly saw this adult dog as his pack leader...

You said it way better than I did. This was what I meant. A pack CAN be a wonderful thing with a strong leader ... but not yet, in this case.

VERY wise to encourage marker training!