Hi Scott;
Compulsion training is using force (mental, emotional or physical)to teach the dog. An example can be as simple as shaking your head no and turning away from your dog, or as severe as hanging your dog. Depending upon on your dog's drives, previous learning, inate charateristics and you, whether or not
learning actually occurs. THIS IS MY CHIEF COMPLAINT AGAINST COMPULSION TRAINING; People assume because the dog "does it"
that learning occured, when in fact, the dog is unable to process what has happened, conceptual learning has been blocked.
Marker training "Seems" to take longer in the begining because you stand there and wait for the dog to "process" but the dog is better able to retain and generalize much more quickly because there is not baggage attached to what just occured.

When you move to the correction phase of learning for a dog,when the teaching phase has been correct, the number and severity of corrections are soooooo much lower because the dog is a willing partner.
Happy Training,
Roni

Just to add to my previous post:
I think generally, people assume compulsion = force,
correction can = but doesn't have to use force.
A lot of people use physical force to correct, a jerk on the leash, a slap on the head, a push on the butt, a chop on the chin to cause a reaction in the dog.
Learning to read a dog is soooooo important.....labatory research is great, but listening to the dog......is best......
Happy Training,
Roni

Here's a great Book about re-training a compulsion trained dog.

I can't say enough good things about this book!

The Thinking Dog http://leerburg.com/996.htm

 Quote: roni hoff

Hi Scott;
Compulsion training is using force (mental, emotional or physical)to teach the dog. An example can be as simple as shaking your head no and turning away from your dog, or as severe as hanging your dog. Depending upon on your dog's drives, previous learning, inate charateristics and you, whether or not
learning actually occurs. THIS IS MY CHIEF COMPLAINT AGAINST COMPULSION TRAINING; People assume because the dog "does it"
that learning occured, when in fact, the dog is unable to process what has happened, conceptual learning has been blocked.
Marker training "Seems" to take longer in the begining because you stand there and wait for the dog to "process" but the dog is better able to retain and generalize much more quickly because there is not baggage attached to what just occured.

When you move to the correction phase of learning for a dog,when the teaching phase has been correct, the number and severity of corrections are soooooo much lower because the dog is a willing partner.
Happy Training,
Roni

 Quote: roni hoff

Just to add to my previous post:
I think generally, people assume compulsion = force,
correction can = but doesn't have to use force.
A lot of people use physical force to correct, a jerk on the leash, a slap on the head, a push on the butt, a chop on the chin to cause a reaction in the dog.
Learning to read a dog is soooooo important.....labatory research is great, but listening to the dog......is best......
Happy Training,
Roni

Thank you for the replies.

Ah, that's how I was training for the 13 years before I discovered Leerburg.

I find that marker training is actually quicker, comparing my current pup (5 mo.) to my old dog (13). I can also see the pup thinking, "ok, is this what you wanted or was it this?" It's also been paying off big time with my older dog, who I guess was compulsion trained enough to make most of you sick. For that, I just took him back to square one like he didn't know anything and retrained him using the same commands he already knew. It's been almost two months and he's doing great. Training's a happy time for him and he even looks me in the eye again instead of just looking at my legs. Of course, the biggest issue has been retraining his owners.

 Quote: scott garrett

.... It's also been paying off big time with my older dog, who I guess was compulsion trained enough to make most of you sick. For that, I just took him back to square one like he didn't know anything and retrained him using the same commands he already knew. It's been almost two months and he's doing great. Training's a happy time for him and he even looks me in the eye again instead of just looking at my legs. Of course, the biggest issue has been retraining his owners.

My dogs love training more than just about anything. I love it; they love it; the dog not working is waiting eagerly with paw raised in a "pick me!" sign ......

Your post about starting over from square one is something that I (and many of us here!) keep saying and saying. It cannot be a bad thing, and it's pretty much guaranteed to be a very good thing if there's any confusion, any anxiety, or any unknown (or known!) training history mucking things up.

I was stupid enough to put off for two years the re-training of one of my own adopted guys, just because he was no problem and complied with basic ob commands.

The change in him after just a few sessions of marker work (with the same commands he had obviously been trained long ago) was amazing. Almost every day I was emailing a new "Holy cow!" message to a fellow board member here, as Leo lost his anxiety about hearing his name, being given a command, and many other common daily occurrences.

His confidence has been restored, pure and simple. And his happiness about training is a joy for me to see.

After I got the hang of marker training and saw how powerful it was with the pup, I immediately started retraining the older dog.

 Quote: Scott Garrett

After I got the hang of marker training and saw how powerful it was with the pup, I immediately started retraining the older dog.

Needed darker font.

Good for you, BTW!

It's working for me!! Training is so much more fun now, I actually enjoy it! More importantly, my dogs are having fun. My heathen wild child is like a different dog.....they just seem so proud of themselves.

I can't wait to learn more....

 Quote: betty waldron

I am retraining a dog that has had enough complulsion done on him to turn most stomachs.

It is a slow process but we are making progress.

Best part is that he enjoys training now and no longer tries to eat me.

Once in a while you can see him looking around for the fight. But those moments are getting fewer and fewer.

Isn't it amazing how some of these "handler aggressive" dogs suddenly realize there is no longer a reason to bite their own handler!!

It's been a long process of trial and error. Most of the error on my part.

But the last two weeks it seems like it has really fallen into place.

Of course I do strongly suspect he is just kicking back reformulating his new plan.............Swear that dog laughs at me.

A lot.

And the rest of my dogs join in and snicker....