One of the significant hazards in becoming involved with dogs, particularly protection dogs, is giving them more credit than they deserve. Casual observation might indicate that there is a greater capability than is really there. This type of thought can get you and/or your dog killed. The purpose of training is to instill specific behaviors in response to specific environmental stimuli. Yes some of those behaviors will generalize to other situations, and that will make the dog look good for thinking ahead. Some times, through dumb luck, the dog will make a good choice in a situation that it hasn't seen before. To assume that this represents a higher thought process could be a fatal flaw.

As has been repeatedly noted on this board a dog's reactions are based on their training, that is frequently the case with humans also. The reactions of a trained military person or a police officer will be different than that of some one untrained. The purpose of the training is to remove, as much as possible, the element of chance from the equation. This is the reason we train to completion of the training. If this were not required then training would be much simpler and quicker. This is also why partial training is so dangerous. If the training is not completed then the dog as an inadequate experience base to do the job properly. This may lead to poor decisions and the dog being declared a menace. The dog could be put down for making a poor decision and you may be subject to civil liability.

My dogs have solved many problems for us, but I do not make the mistake of allowing them to make many independent judgments. When they do make an independent judgment they warn me so that I can direct their actions. This is not a thought process they go through, they are reacting to their training. They have also made several bad decisions that I have been able to block based on their training. If their training were not to the level it is, I would have had real problems. If you want to romanticize your relationship with your dog I won't be able to change your mind, but keep in mind it will set you up for failure in your training and expose you and your dog to unnecessary dangers. It isn't pretty, but it is true. If you try to elevate your dog to equal with you, you are asking for problems. It is a dog not a person. It will act like a dog, not a person

This will be short because I have to go, but would like to leave a few comments.

Dogs think. If you don't believe it then I think one of two things have happened. You have a poorly bred dog or you are not paying attention.

As for one of the problems people have in training a well bred dog for protection......I'd say the biggest mistake is not giving them enough credit.

Why is it that if one thinks a dog is capable of thought, judgment, problem solving, etc. that this must be romanticizing or anthropomorphizing?

"Casual observation might indicate that there is a greater capability than is really there."
Conversely, casual observation may not recognize the capability that IS there.

If you set the bar low, then you just won't get very far.

There are a lot of things I can be accused of, but not low expectations of my dogs. I have spent more time working with dogs than you can imagine. My current Giant male is protection trained, a working therapy dog, and does draft work. Our Mini also does protection work. It isn't useful except for demos and raising money for the local P.D. Service Dog program. I have trained for protection, obedience, retrievers, pointers, and done security work with my dogs. I ran obedience classes for awhile, I have also shown dogs. I am not a casual observer. I am a firm believer in high expectations for my dogs.

Catherine, I have yet to hear what you have done. You seem awful critical and argumentative for a beginer. Do you have some credintials, or just strong opinions. You seem fixated on your ideas, and know it all much better than the rest of us. So why are you wasting your time with us poor, pathetic mortals?

Catherine makes some very nice points. Rich--don't ya think your getting a little carried away with yourself? Maybe you four years of operant psychology has conditioned you to be pompous <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . Here's a great article on how dogs think--http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/dogthink.html <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dogs definitley think, we have a bullmastiff /dane cross that carries its blankets around the garden according to where the sun is shining on the lawn. She moves all her cushions and rugs and bones from the back yard to the front as one area is in the shadows and the other is nice and warm.

I have also personally seen a black lab dog that would carry wood into the house from the outside pile and lay it in the fire place when it wanted the fire lit because he was cold.

No doubt the egg head academics would say these are simply behaviours learnt through association or some other psudeo intellectuall bullshit but I think they demonstrate a simple reasoning ability. ie. its warm over on the other side of the lawn therefore Ill move over there, its more comfy laying on my blankets than the grass so Ill take them with me.

The only reason we dont see more intelligent dogs around is because show breeders have so degraded dogs in most western countries, including Australia. They're only breed for looks, how many beautifull looking women or men have you met who were highly intelligent? Not many I bet, the two attributes seem mutually exclusive.

Australian stock dogs are good because they are ruthlessly culled if they wont work. A rifle is never far from reach on a farm and dogs that dont do what they are told or dont show strong stock work drives are shot out of hand. Stock dogs show a lot of intelligence. (I suppose you would if your saw your littler mate plugged for for being a little slow!)

Thats why the germans have a reputation for breeding good dogs. They are preety quick to cull what they consider substandard as well. The holocaust didnt come out of a sociall vacumn. They started applying to human beings the attitudes they had being applying to their dogs for years. (Im in no way endorsing this attitude towards people, I despise fascism.)

***They're only breed for looks, how many beautifull looking women or men have you met who were highly intelligent? Not many I bet, the two attributes seem mutually exclusive.***

LOL, mate. You must be extremely handsome. You may be right about dogs, but people are not "bred", as far as I know. But then I've never been to Australia...

Brendan comments on what the dog does,all perfectly natural instincts,the African wild dog will also move around usually to avoid the sun but each move is followed by bed making.Watch a dog circle in long grass before it lies down,the carrying of the blanket is habit.
Its very easy to confuse natural instincts with thinking,we have lost most of our natural instincts,they have not,YET

Richard,

I am not trying to criticize or be argumentative or suggest you're a 'casual' observer. People of varying degrees of experience can observe and see different things and science can't explain it all - to prove or disprove. And yes, I am a beginner at best.

The following are just general observations NOT aimed at anyone.

Experience doesn't necessarily make one more knowlegable about dog behaviour (and I'm NOT suggesting I am). This is true of many professions - just because a doctor, lawyer, politician, or engineer has more experience than another does not make them more knowledgable or qualified in their profession. The two do not go hand in hand.

There is so much evidence that a dog posesses thought. I think its often overlooked or dismissed as something else.

I have to agree with Brendan on the show breeding. When people start breeding for an appearance instead of an ability, what can you expect?

Also, in America now people seem to feel as if a dog should never be put down. I disagree. Dogs with genetic problems should be culled. This isn't being done by many people and look at what we have happening. We have governments wanting to ban many breeds of dogs. Some of these dogs who bite people are that way due to the way they have been raised, some due to their genetics, and some both.