As Alyssa mentioned the hard part is finding the right lines in the off breeds as many of them have been watered down from their original intent, which were guardians first and foremost.
Without doing any digging the first dogs that came to mind were the Pyrenees (more properly the Great Pyrenees), the Kuvasz, and finally one that you may be interested in as you're now on it's home breeding grounds is the Akita.

Randy

Randy,

I have actually been in contact with some Akita people here in Japan with the thought that I might bring one back with me. As I have not yet decided on the best breed for me yet, though, I believe I will be going home alone as I am leaving in just a couple of weeks.

Regarding the Great Pyrenees and Kuvasz - I have indeed been looking at them as well. In addition to other breeds of their ilk in the Livestock Guardian group. There is actually a breeder close to home who specializes in Anatolian Shepherds, and another breeder who prefers the Komondor.

From what I can tell, these would be excellent choices. I would love to know if you have any others you would recommend.

Hi Vito,

I'll just jump in quickly because I saw Ridgebacks on your short list... Oscar (see sig pic) is my 4 y/o RR and while he's a pretty naturally protective dog (in the loose sense of being watchful, wary, and reliable for a big loud alert on intruders), the most important thing to remember about RRs is that they're HOUNDS. Hounds, in general have been bred to be great hunters, trackers, and most importantly, independent thinkers. For this reason, I have read and heard time and again that RRs are not suitable for PROPER, trained protection work.

Regarding "dangerous" dog lists, sadly, I think RRs are also starting to appear there as well - their rarity is waning and as more and more inexperienced owners acquire them, the potential for damagingly poor handling increases... and then the stereotyping begins. They are a powerful, proud, goofy and energetic breed, but not, IMO, a good match for someone with serious protection goals or expectations (nor are they good for someone without the time, energy or space to seriously exercise them).

I have found Oscar to be an excellent visual deterrent though, and when he howls at someone, they just about hit the deck cowering.

Best of luck with your search - you can NEVER do too much research beforehand, and I strongly recommend you go see some good representatives of each breed in person - training clubs, dog shows, breeders, talk to anyone who can offer you their experience...

~Natalya

I have yet to see a Giant Schnauzer on any bad dog list, but I would hesitate suggesting one to a novice handler. American Bull Dogs, with proper paperwork can sometimes slip by as well.

But if the list is the main thing you are trying to circumvent, I have State Farm, and two male, intact Rotts. My agent knows, and I was not denied coverage, even in the state of California. Just a thought.

Also, in regard to the GSD and health, keep in mind that the working line dogs tend to be far healthier than the show line. Far more healthy. That thought generally holds true for most breeds.

While away, do read up on and study as much as you can about the biting sports. Watch videos, read books, study this forum, and generally become well versed on the subject as one can get without much hands on experience. I am sure there are SCH clubs in Japan that would welcome an observer. Keep an open mind and reserve judgment.

You will probably find that short of the dogs used for police and military work, few breeds will be up to the task of actually defending a person. You may hear the odd story of the Lab or Husky defending his home, but those are few and far between and exceptional dogs (flukes?). Often, the breeders of these off breeds (like the breeds you were inquiring about) will exaggerate claims of family protection ability, often because in their limited experience and naivety they believe it. They see what they want to see, and some will use these claims for financial gain. Buyer beware.

**ETA**As a side note, I wanted to give an example of naive breeders, truly thinking that they were correct and producing working examples of my breed. There was a discussion of what titles a dogs parents should have to be assured that it is a working dog. The answers included AD and CD. AD is nothing more than a onetime endurance test, and a CD is a basic obedience title. All well and good, but 99% of dogs should be able to get either (with some work), and 99% of them would run and hide from a bad guy. But these breeders really, truly thought that those two titles alone proved working ability and that the resulting pups could be a police service dog. An unsuspecting buyer would see that, and hear them justify it and could believe it. *shaking head* Happens all the time.

A livestock breed, truly bred to work livestock, are rarely good protection dogs for a family. They are bred to work on instinct and without direction. This can be dangerous in a family or social setting. A dog that is tuned into and works well WITH his owner is necessary for training and social life with humans; bidabiliety and willingness to please. In a livestock capacity, these dogs think for themselves (sound good, but does not carry over well with family life), are rarely actually trained to work (mostly instinct, and are actually difficult to train) and often live with the livestock they protect (not humans who have vastly different protection needs).

A breed that has proven its self through actual test is more likely to provide you with a dog that will perform.

I know I did not answer your question exactly, but hope it gives you some insite…

Natalya - Oscar is a handsome devil. A close friend of my family's aunt and uncle I believe used to breed RR's and Schipperkes (an odd pair), and my fiancee has an RR or two as clientele (she's a veterinary technician). They're excellent dogs. I also believe in very very thorough research (I'm known to overkill it a bit ). My understanding of the RR is that they are indeed quite the protector, and show it. Regarding protection, I believe Alyssa's assessment is correct in that the visual and audible signs are really what will be used most. From what the literature seems to say about RR's, though, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some bite behind that bark if someone ever pushed through a front door and tackled an owner. But, this is just what the websites seem to say.

Also judging from the web sites, I certainly wouldn't put a RR to the personal protection training. Their disposition doesn't seem to support the sort of drive and dependence on handler's command necessary to do Schutzhund-like commands.

Jessica - Thank you for your input and your actual insurance situation. Rottweilers are an excellent breed - a favorite of my fiancee's - and I've largely discounted them given health and insurance concerns. However, should the health concerns be significantly abated by the above advice (proper precautions, and a solid working line), and insurance be less of a problem than I expected, then a Rottie might be an excellent breed to pay more attention to.

Regarding your statements on livestock guardian breeds - why do you believe them to be poor guardians for people? Are they less likely to be visual deterrents to human intruders? Perhaps less likely to attempt physical intervention? Both?

 Quote: JessicaKromer

A livestock breed, truly bred to work livestock, are rarely good protection dogs for a family. They are bred to work on instinct and without direction. This can be dangerous in a family or social setting. A dog that is tuned into and works well WITH his owner is necessary for training and social life with humans; bidabiliety and willingness to please. In a livestock capacity, these dogs think for themselves (sound good, but does not carry over well with family life), are rarely actually trained to work (mostly instinct, and are actually difficult to train) and often live with the livestock they protect (not humans who have vastly different protection needs).

Great post Jessica - this part in particular was sort of what I was getting at with the RR, though it would obviously apply to breeds like the Pyr and the Anatolian as well... I also second the comments by Jessica and Alyssa that while some breeds can be prone to specific health issues, the breeders of working lines within those breeds (as opposed to strictly show lines, or just poor quality stock) often produce individuals that are remarkably robust and that live long, healthy lives.

~Natalya

I would certainly agree that the Livestock Guardians and Hounds and certain other groups would not be ideal for protection work, however, I have heard that the Livestock Guardians in particular, if an intruder attacked a person considered to be part of the "flock", would deal with the intruder much like a coyote or other animal poaching stock - a nice strong tackle or some other form of physical persuasion. Now this is just what the online materials seem to tout, so it certainly could be wrong...it just seems to be said a lot, so I thought there might be some credence to it....

I certainly wouldn't expect, however, a Great Pyrenees or other of this group to have the drive and control necessary to complete formal personal protection training. It's just this innate bit over and above simply the visual intimidation that I'm curious about with these particular breeds.

It would seem that this would be a natural carryover of the dog’s instinct, but in reality, not likely. If this were the case in fact, these breeds would be sold on a much larger scale as family protectors. Unfortunately, this claim of natural ability is very rarely tested in real life, and when it fails, the unfortunate owners are not blasting the internet with false advertising claims. In other words, as it is never tested or reported, the claims can be freely made.

You would be hard pressed to find a livestock (truly working it’s natural job) bred dog for sell to a pet owner. Most you will find will be the equivalent of the snowline breeders of GSDs and Rotts. These true working dogs are too valuable to sell as pets, but with the VERY limited number who need them in day to day life for working livestock, this superior breeding is very hard to come by. You may find 100 breeders of any one of these breeds, but most (every?) one of them on the internet will be selling show line or pet line dogs (usually despite claims otherwise&hellip. Those who have the real deal will be selling or trading to known people in the industry who keep livestock the way they do. Typically it is a closed group.

Pet/show line of these breeds may make a great family companion, but I would never put my family in the paws of one when it comes to protection. GSDs were/are the original police dogs, but sadly, the one's with true instinct that can be relied upon is rare. Even more true in these, and all other, off breeds.

Also, what the inexperienced see as protective and instinctual is more often defensive and fearful. But this inexperienced observance can be convincing and feed into the the illusion.

Now things are starting to get a little convoluted.
My understanding from your first post Vito was that you wanted a family dog that you could have a 'reasonable' expection of some action in your defense if things in life turned bad. And that you were NOT interested in training for protection if it could be helped.
The three breeds I've mentioned are breeds that for one reason or another have met numerous representatives of. And the majority in each case shows a willingness to stand their ground against a percieved threat. Have I met weak dogs from those breeds? Yes, but the majority of each have shown a determination to stand and defend the line drawn in the sand. That is why if someone wants what might be termed as a natural protector, they are the first breeds I think of.

If however, one wants to train to some end, anything at all, then the GSD is the only dog in the world if one were to ask me.
Every other breed are only one trick ponies.
Na na na na na na.

Randy

Thank you for the elaboration, Jessica. How do you feel about your Rotties as all around dogs as well as protectors? I find their origins as versatile working dogs, and their high level of intelligence very appealing characteristics along with their ability to protect.

Are there a decent number of breeders of true working line Rotties and GSDs in the USA? I'd love to find some in the South East and then make a drive over to meet them and their dogs when I get back home....