Although it seems they do not mind the crates they take up a lot of room (these dogs are 80lbs each). I would also like to leave the house and know they will not destroy anything. They are both still young dogs and I am hoping maturity is right around the corner. I have had them assessed. The outcome was that although it seems Jeter is the more confident of the two, the "experts" say that he is actually insecure and immature. He is more difficult to walk then Dakota and definitely always on alert. I rescued him at 4 months old and the shelter had no idea of his background. He is extremely loyal and affectionate to my wife and I. With the kids, he is affectionate but I think he sees them as equal or lesser pack members. I try to convey the rules to the kids but working with teenagers is far more difficult than working with the dogs. I'm sure some of you can relate. I use a lot of the methods I learned working with a trainer and also watching the Dog Whisperer (who I met a few weeks ago). It seems that Jeter has the potential to be a problem but my relationship with him is so strong that I think I have it under control.

If you mean Cesar Millan, please don't make the common mistake of assuming that if he can do something, then all the rest of us can too. Not a wise assumption. Yes, I have met him too, back at his old small seminars, and I think that he is part dog. He is amazing. Most of the rest of us are on another level entirely.

About the crates: I have to say that "getting rid of them once and for all" is not a realistic goal with two dogs in the house, one (or both) still young. Neither is a goal of leaving them loose in the house and "knowing they will not destroy anything."

About the chewies and toys: It takes just once, just one disagreement over one guarded item, to spark a bad dog fight. Have you ever seen one? Ever seen a kid (or adult) who got between two dogs, trying to break up a fight?

Dog fights in people's homes are so often followed by " .... these guys have been sharing toys since I brought Dakota home at 8 weeks old" or some other version of "they never did THIS before!"

No dogs ever did it before the first time. Wouldn't you rather put everything in place to ensure no first time, no dog fights, no injured dogs or kid?

You already have warnings about developing food aggression and stress. I would move so fast to end it that their heads would spin. Neither dog would see or hear the other dog while eating after that situation you describe. Period.

And I would take the food issues for what they are: Warnings to you that these dogs have resource tension between them and that continuing to leave toys or treats with the two of them is an invitation to disaster.


Having a dog who views kids as lesser pack members is something that requires immediate work, too, IMHO.

None of this is meant to be confrontational. I am seeing red flags all over the place in this thread, as are other experienced handlers/owners.

Also, rather than reading Cesar Millan to understand body language, I would recommend reading 'Canine Body Language' by Brenda Aloof (there are also other body language books available on this site). Brenda Aloof also has a great book on dog aggression/body language that I'm not sure if Leerburg sells, but I would check it out.

I've only read one of Cesar Millan's books, and it's not what I would look to for body language. I think it's important for all dog owners to really understand what their dogs are expressing but I would say especially so in your case.

As to getting rid of crates...
I had two dogs (one I still have) who did fine together until eating. I didn't leave both of them alone together in the house for several years (read almost 4 years). I love my Husky boy but I just couldn't trust him not to pick a fight with the Corgi mix -- female, older, and dominant. As he got older, dynamics started to shift.

I didn't crate my dogs. BUT, they also did not and were NOT allowed to stare, fight, bully, push, trip, shove, or take something from the other so early on that it really wasn't a problem. But leaving them together in the house? I don't think I did that more than a few times for a short period of time, and not until the Husky was much older and settled.

Don't be in a hurry. Just because it may APPEAR they get along, they probably don't. Hambone took many years to mature and season and I worked very hard with him. (Still do, now I have Lucy!)

Take your time, listen to the people on this board and you probably will have a cohesive pack. Ignore them and you will definitely have a disaster.

AND< what exactly makes you think they put the kids below them? What signs are you seeing? This could (will be) dangerous so we (I) would like to know what you are seeing, feeling, sensing, about this.

Edited by Jo Harker (05/13/2009 11:25 AM)
Edit reason: Added

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

And I would take the food issues for what they are: Warnings to you that these dogs have resource tension between them and that continuing to leave toys or treats with the two of them is an invitation to disaster.

Alec, they also ate well together for a year. That changed.

What if they decide to stop sharing toys while they are free in the house with no one present?

It can happen.

These 2 are currently telling you that they have issues with each other. You talk about reading their body language and being in tune with them. Listen to what they are telling you now. In this moment.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I never take anything as confrontational. Good advice is good advice. I appreciate it. My kids are older so there is little chance they would get in the middle of anything. I agree with everything you guys are telling me so I need to find out the best way to designate which toys belong to which dog and how best to reinforce that. I have used electronic collars and I am not a big fan. I feel like all I am doing is scaring the dog into listening. I have used only the vibrate feature but I don't really like it. Some thoughts on that would be helpful as well. Both Jeter and Dakota will come to me to have the e-collars put on so I guess they don't mind them. In fact once I put the collar on him he becomes a more calm submissive dog. Even if its not turned on. I just wonder if I am teaching him or scaring him into listening.

"I need to find out the best way to designate which toys belong to which dog and how best to reinforce that."

Toys belong to YOU. Nothing belongs to the dogs.

Toys in crates only or when you are there. Easy-peasy.

They are put away at all other times.

 Quote: Alec S. Garrison

so I need to find out the best way to designate which toys belong to which dog and how best to reinforce that.

What ever toy you have in your hand and what ever dog you are playing with.

Use play time for obedience training. Have one dog sit and wait while the other retrieves. Then switch or do 1 at a time.

 Quote: Alec S. Garrison

I have used electronic collars and I am not a big fan. I feel like all I am doing is scaring the dog into listening. I have used only the vibrate feature but I don't really like it. Some thoughts on that would be helpful as well.

http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

Also, rather than reading Cesar Millan to understand body language, I would recommend reading 'Canine Body Language' by Brenda Aloof...

I've only read one of Cesar Millan's books, and it's not what I would look to for body language. I think it's important for all dog owners to really understand what their dogs are expressing but I would say especially so in your case.

Ditto - I love watching Cesar Millan too, but both his book and his show taught me much more about HIM than it did the real nitty gritty about dog behavior. He's doing great work spreading a very general (but hugely important) gospel about what dog's really need, and how their handlers need to work with them, but it's a bigger picture view. If you really want to learn the finer points of canine behavior, including natural history and WHY they do what they do, there are better books out there. JMO

And I second all of Connie's great points. Crates can continue to be wonderful tools even after dogs have reached adulthood, many people never get rid of theirs, but since your pups are still very much adolescents - and clearly full of not so great surprises - I'd hang onto them for a while.

Your experience at the dog park is a great indication of how seriously you need to be treating the resource issue with your dogs. Between the park and your home, Jeter has proven that he will aggress over toys and food, and you just don't want to be creating situations that will test his limits. What happens when you leave them unattended together one day and Dakota finds a lost saltine under the couch? Better to crate or separate when unsupervised.

If you're committed to trying the separation during feeding time route - do it all the way. Don't let these two even SENSE the presence of the other while the bowls are down. Realistically, dog's finish their meals in mere minutes, so we're not talking about THAT much time apart - just make sure it's 100%.

~Natalya

Connie's right. If the dog doesn't "own" anything, they have nothing to protect. Besides, if you pick up the toys and put them away after each play session, you get to be a hero again next time they come out--all good things come from you. Also keeps toys from becoming boring. If they sit out all the time, there's nothing new to play with. A toy that's been in the box for a couple of weeks is almost as good as a new one!