Quote: Scott Garrett

The reaction I described about the three guys on bikes. If that was fearful reaction, what is a protective reaction?

I was trying to illustrate the similarities I saw in Duke and Luc's behaviour. My guess is fearful, but.

From what you wrote:

 Quote:

The third time was at about 2am in the front yard when three guys came riding around the corner with bags of recyclables, making a fair amount of noise. He was a bit unsure about that one when the third guy appeared, but bounced back almost immediately.

I'm honestly not sure what happened or what Duke did, but I can see that being an odd situation that could take a dog aback.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Did you mean that his posture and barking/growling when the bike guys approached was protectiveness? Of your home/family?

Again, just trying to be all using the same terminology.

I have not seen much of what I would call naturally protective behavior, and I have seen a whole lot of other behaviors that others call naturally protective (and I don't). But that's strictly one lone opinion, and who knows what terminology is doing to tweak what dog folks say to each other. Probably a lot.

Yeah, the "The third time was at about 2am in the front yard when three guys came riding around the corner with bags of recyclables, making a fair amount of noise. He was a bit unsure about that one when the third guy appeared, but bounced back almost immediately." part.

He seems to be pretty territorial, judging by how often he kicks his back feet around the yard. From what I've come to understand, and I could be wrong, he might have been protecting his territory from a perceived threat or protecting his owner? Both would still be fear based at the fundamental level.

I'm familiar with the aggressive bluff, my friend's deer chihuahua does it in their front yard and at their front door. He charges, looking like he's going to do something, but then quickly runs off with so much as a leg twitch, coming back again when you look away. Quick note, that dog is doing far better now than it was when they first got it because I work with it every time I go over. That said, Duke doesn't behave like this. He seems more like he's coming into his hormones and is unsure about his reaction...possible double whammy of hormones and fear period. He's fine with people and people on bikes because he's a sees a lot on his daily walks and our catty-corner neighbors gather for daily family rides. He's also fairly used to seeing people walking around at night and not showing aggression. However, this was the first time he saw people on bikes, at night, making unfamiliar noise (bags of aluminum cans), while on his own territory. Going back to Jennifer's story about Luc, I was doing some reading in Vol. 2 of The Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training and the biggest difference is that Luc showed his reaction in her absence and Duke shows his while in my presence...aside from barking at knocking on the door.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

 Quote: Scott Garrett

The reaction I described about the three guys on bikes. If that was fearful reaction, what is a protective reaction?

I was trying to illustrate the similarities I saw in Duke and Luc's behaviour. My guess is fearful, but.

From what you wrote:

 Quote:

The third time was at about 2am in the front yard when three guys came riding around the corner with bags of recyclables, making a fair amount of noise. He was a bit unsure about that one when the third guy appeared, but bounced back almost immediately.

I'm honestly not sure what happened or what Duke did, but I can see that being an odd situation that could take a dog aback.

I thirst for knowledge. In my pursuit, I can be a little cut and dry which puts people off at times. I do apologize for that.

Odd situation, indeed. It did take him aback a bit, but he rebounded almost immediately.

You didn't sound cut-and-dried to me. Just too brief for me to get the whole thought.

Anyway, yeah, it's interesting.

Rebounding is good!

QUOTE: I was doing some reading in Vol. 2 of The Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training and the biggest difference is that Luc showed his reaction in her absence and Duke shows his while in my presence... END

And it would be interesting to figure out whether your presence gave him cojones to do his display, or pack to defend. Or whether he was perceiving a threat to himself and showing fear aggression. Or what. Or whether I have no idea at all but am basing my meandering and pointless thoughts on all the anxiety/fear-prompted behaviors that you did note in the first post.

Have you read the third volume yet? It was the best of the three, for me.

My bad.

You bring up a good point. Any ideas on a way to replicate without causing undue stress? I guess my stumbling block is that when I picture a fearful dog I picture the classic example, not so much fundamentally fear based behaviors. He does show fear and anxiety in certain situations but doesn't really behave like a fearful dog in general. In my inexperienced opinion, it seems like poor early socialization and possible abuse.

I've barely dented Vol. 2. That thing reads like stereo instructions.

Volume 3 is MUCH better about not reading like stereo instructions. Also, IMO, there is no compelling need to read them in order. I didn't. LOL

My own feeling about replicating would be a huge no. I'd be way more focused on socializing and bonding and confidence-building marker work. How long have you had him? I forget.

Though I should note, in my absences, I was at most 5M or so away from him.

Once I was picking up his poop and he was on leash, it was just that my back was turned and I was completely unaware of a couple of guys who entered the park (it was actually kind of funny, ir was midnight so nobody was around, and Luc growled, I turned around like 'huh' and heard 'that was THAT DOG' and saw a couple of hipsters running off. Anyways).

The second time we were on the same campsite, he was 5M or so away, but I had my head stuck in the tent and again was unaware of the people approaching.

I agree replicating isn't necessary, and it is fantastic he rebounded. With Neb, when I see him be unsure about something, as long as he can overcome that unsurety, than I feel good about that. He's generally confident, but I think it's really good when they can demonstrate the ability to rebound, b/c it's probably a rare dog that will never ever be put off by anything.

Maybe one of these guys will see this thread, and any of them would be a lot better than me at helping you to diagnose the pup's behavior:
Will, Ed, Mike Schoonbrood, Cindy, Bob Scott, Steve Strom, Randy Allen, Alyssa Myracle.




ps
Probably 25 others, too. lol

Groovy, groovy.

We've had him for just a hair shy of four months.

For bonding, I tether him to me in the house, take him into my arms both inside and out while talking calmly to him and stroking him from collar to hip, and allow him to lay in my lap (with equals him being on his back with his head and shoulders in my lap) while I scratch his chest.

For training, I've changed my approach after one of the recent newsletters. Now I just work on one or two commands per short session and make sure that I don't telegraph the reward. We've been working on sit/stay and down/stay, in separate sessions. Recall is done mostly through recall games. On walks we work on sitting when I stop, keeping slack on the leash (a big issue for him), and coming back to my left side after taking a break. Tug sessions intermix sit, down, bite on "get it", and "bring it here" (fetch) with the actual play. Play usually comes after a training session for a total of about 8-10 minutes, but he also gets play time apart from a training session.

Mealtime, which I feel is important here, involves him calming down before I open his crate, sitting while I put his prong collar and leash on, waiting until I call him out, sitting again while I close the crate down, and walking calmly next to me to the door. There he sits again while I open the door and walk through, I call him to another sit, then he waits while I walk down the two steps to our door, call him next to me, have him do a few puppy push ups, and then release him with "Duke, eat" when he's being calm. I just started being that strict and feeding him outside a few days ago, because he was just being ridiculous about mealtimes. It's had amazing results on his over-all behavior.

I've been on the fence about stepping his socialization up. He doesn't seem to want people to pet him and I don't want to force him, but on the other hand I think he needs to be more confident about people reaching towards him. We've already protected him a few times from overt threats, charging dogs and obnoxious humans, so I would hope he knows that we're going to be there for him. So far, we've taken him to parks, supermarkets, and our downtown area along with walks through the busy neighborhood. What I haven't done is much of anything in the way of strangers approaching or turning them into treat machines. The last time a stranger approached us Duke seemed unsure but wasn't showing outward signs of aggression or fear. I had to ask the guy to stop staring him in the eyes though, because that made Duke take a step forward. Once he did that, Duke came back to my side and I had him sit (on just enough leash to stand back up) while the guy and I talked for a few seconds. What can/should I do from this point?

Oh no, socialization to me means taking him everywhere. Nothing about being forced to meet-and-greet humans OR dogs.

I would not allow people to lean towards him/loom over him/touch him or anything else that he is uncomfortable with. This is what will cement your relationship, as he perceives you as the one in control and the one who protects the pack.

Four months is short, really. When he is completely confident about you and his pack, I betcha that he will be far less nervous about other humans. He will have learned firsthand that no one is allowed to make him anxious because you will not let them.

My dogs have all come to me in skewed ways, too, from SPCA seizures to shelters. Give him all the time he needs and he will have a whole life as a secure and confident dog.

Sometime have the dog hang around under your chair or beside you while an acquaintance ignores him completely and chats with you, and see how long it takes before the dog gets confident, then curious, and then sidles over to sniff and check out this human who is not challenging or menacing him in any way. I betcha you see a big difference in his reaction to that kind of meet-and-greet.