I agree that food, toys, praise, are all examples of inducement, and not compulsion. Where I think I have to diverge is that compulsion=punishment. Punishment or fear/avoidance of it can compel, but compulsion is not punishment.
Punish: 1 a: to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation, b: to inflict a penalty for the commission of an offense in retribution or retaliation, 2 a: to deal with roughly or harshly, b: to inflict injury on
Correcting the snot outta the dog is punishment, especially with sharpened prongs! Because the dog learns to avoid the punishment, it can then be seen as compulsion. Pushing down on a dog's rump to make him sit is compulsion, but it is not punishment, a) because it does not happen after the fact, rather, it causes the act to happen, and b) it is not painful, and does not inflict injury.
Perhaps it is not whether compulsion is neccessary in dog training, but whether punishment is neccessary, that should be the question?
Robert VanCamp Webboard User Reg: 11-28-2001
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Swan, did I say it has to be punishment? You are right, there is a line where some things in training are still compulsive, but not all that unpleasant. Like pushing the butt. Every puppy will go down with a push, but are you giving him a choice? No, so compulsion has it's own degrees of unpleasantness, or in this case not necessarilly unpleasant. Still compulsion. . .
Caniche, does that make more sense? No, the two do not cross over. You may use both in training, everybody does.
Picture this.........Light bulb going on in darkened room. Perplexed person no longer.
Thank you.
End of visualization. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Van Camp,
No, you did not say that it has to be punishment, but your explanations, in my perception, did focus more on the punitive aspects of compulsion. I think that is where a lot of people get confused about what compulsion really is. Obviously that was not the case with Caniche's misinterpretation of the term, but I think you get my drift, no?
I would like to pose a question that sort of relates to this subject.
Taking all these training concepts and more into consideration -- what produces a dog that will perform reliably on command when it knows it will not be rewarded with food/toys/etc or when it knows it can not be physically corrected/compulsed if it disobeys at the time?
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