Thanks Todd - I actually am not looking for help with my training of my own dogs, they are all doing well. I do ask on occasion tho about my rescues who are in foster homes, not mine. I actually am looking for explanations of compulsion - which I do not quite "get" and I think LSwanston is starting to make it more clear to me. Can you explain it more for me? I am not being difficult - I want to understand the term better. Thanks.

Compulsion= any un-natural force, (passive or active, physical or mental) placed on the animal by another being, for whatever reason.

Todd,
You stinker! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I'm going to bed. I've had enough. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Not helping me Lonny - can you expand? I was told placing a hand on a rear was compulsion - not pushing - and I don't see it. Since you said you can see purely positive - very rare but you said something along the line's of your hat was off to them - what WOULD be purely positive?

Well if you touch the dog's butt, that is an un-natural force placed on the dog.. your compeling him to sit. To be honest now that I think of it.. there is no such thing as PURLEY Positive...if you really get down to the nitty gritty... there is just no way any kind of behaviour learning/adjusting can occur without some kind of compulsion. I think that people who claim to use purly positive training are kidding themselves and need to think about what compulsion really is.. and it is what I stated in the last post. Then they can see that it is just not true. lol I think compulsion can be both negitive and positive, but compulsion non the less for each.

Example: 1: Touching the dogs butt teaching the sit..the dog does not preceve this as negitive or hostile thing.. rather positive and nice, a helping hand to understnad what you want, then a treat for doing it(depending on how you do it of course) Positive compulsion
2: Give a correction with the prong collar teaching the dog to sit... a negitive compulsion using avoidence. Getting yacked until the proper position is done.(Negitive Active Compulsion)
3: Saying "Sit" and waiting to issue reward until sitting without touching or anything. Ignoring/withholding treat/praise until proper position is done Passive Negitive compulsion

Make sense? Wish I could spell..

Here is a mind bender.. Praise is compulsion. Think about that! When you pat your dog, or tell him what a good boy he is, your compelling him to continue the wanted/liked behaviour.

The trainer I know that trains Service dogs uses compulsion at fairly heavy levels. He also doesn't use treats to train in any fashion. So not all dogs for any purpose are all trained the same ways.

Training has a strong personal component, like teaching. What works well for one person won't work at all for another.

The easiest explination of the difference between compulsion training and "positive training" is that the Positive training is dependant on a reward that the dog will work for and then using that reward to entice the desired behavior. With compulsion the behavior is "forced" through various methods. That could be to push the dogs but down for a sit or step on a leash to put the dog in a down.

I doubt many people use only one or the other method of training. The most common method is to use the positive to teach the dog the behavior and then compulsion to proof it and increase reliability. In compulsion there is also some sort of reward use, that could be praise, a treat, or a toy. If the dog doesn't comply the dog recieves a negative inducement. Percentages of both correction/compulsion and reward are varied as training goes on.

Lonny you are wrong buddy. Compulsion can be done in a way that isn't unpleasant, but there is a clear difference in allowing the dog to make it's own decision to follow a command or compelling him to follow the command. I don't think praise is compelling the dog to continue working, it is continuing to reward for working. The dog is being induced to continue working, he can at any time stop if he so desires, praise or no.

Compulsion is forcing the dog to do something, no matter how nice you are doing it. (i.e. a little push on the bum to direct a puppy to sit) Inducing the dog to do something is offering a reward that is desirable enought to jump through the hoop to get. No force involved, no compulsion. If dog doesn't jump, no treat/praise/ball.

I think there is a clear difference. Everything is not compulsive. . .not by a long shot.

Now, I do have to say that there are some dogs who have a very dominating handler, who may very well view continued praise as a compulsion to continue the behavior, but that is different.

There is 100% "positive" or 100% inducive training in my opinion.

Training a sit for example. The first time you do it you don't need to use any force what so ever to teach the sit. By controlling the environment and following with the nature of the dog's anatomy you can take a treat and hold it over the pups head and command "said ne". Then by moving the treat behind the dog, Fido will eventually, naturally, fall into a sit position to reach the treat. BAM- praise, treat.

Where is the compulsion? There is none. Controlling environment isn't compulsive.

And compulsion isn't negative or positive in my opinion. It can be pleasant or unpleasant, but it is always negative, compulsive, in nature.

You are forcing the dog to perform.

Maybe I just don't like your choice of words, the meanings can be very similar. The words negative are used in to many other ways in dog training. (i.e. Negative Rienforcement etc)