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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21501 - 08/29/2002 12:29 PM |
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Originally posted by L Swanston:
No. I'm saying that compulsion means that the dog has no choice. but are you saying that the dog has to no choice form a mental decision making point, or he has no choice from a "real world" perspective?
what I am trying to say is.. there is always a choice, the options might not be appealing, but the choice is always there, period..
you can stim a dog with an e-collar for not downing... and he might know exactly what will make the stim stop.. but he can "decide" to run around, scream, jump, bite.... but they "typically" pick the "correct" answer.... and some will shut down and never present the proper action.....
-Matt |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21502 - 08/29/2002 12:31 PM |
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Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
I can't accept that. Regardless of what the dictionary says, IMHO, in the vernacular of dog training, when a person says he trains with compulsion, he means he trains with force. And an ear pinch is most definitely compulsion. yes in the "vernacular of dog training"
see my above post, that is all I was trying to point out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
-Matt |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21503 - 08/29/2002 12:32 PM |
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Sch3FH2,
I could probably give you that one. Since escaping pain is impulsive for all living things, I suppose that painful aversives could be considered compulsion.
Lisa & Lucy, CGC, Wilderness Airscent
Western Oregon Search Dogs |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21504 - 08/29/2002 12:33 PM |
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Originally posted by L Swanston:
What I'm thinking, to put it in the simplest terms possible, is that compulsion means that the dog has no choice but to do what he is being forced to do. In Sch3FH2's example, the ear pinch is not compulsion because you are not forcing the dog to do anything; it is an aversive (or punishment) for not complying. When the dog complies, you remove the aversive. The dog still has a choice whether or not or when to comply. something else worth discussing here, is the perception of the subject.... if the dog believes that the only way possible to stop the "aversive" is to take the dumbbell, then he is being compelled... it always falls back on the perception of the subject, not the perception of the trainer..
that is the big key in being an effective trainer, being able to understand the subjects "view"..
then again, what the hell do I know? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
-Matt |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21505 - 08/29/2002 12:34 PM |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21506 - 08/29/2002 12:35 PM |
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Originally posted by L Swanston:
Sch3FH2,
I could probably give you that one. Since escaping pain is impulsive for all living things, I suppose that painful aversives could be considered compulsion. wouldn't this also depend on the subject's view of things?
meaning, if the dog was so dominate, that he believed his entire being was based upon him never submitting.. would it be possible that he would never accept such an "affront" to his status in the world?
-Matt |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21507 - 08/29/2002 12:37 PM |
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Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
There are internal needs, emotions, and drives which motivate a person/dog to behave a certain way, but you have to get into aberant behavior, like OCD, to begin to call it a compulsion. And it isn't YOU (the trainer) that compels the dog to do anything; it is the motivator that he is fixated on (the laser light, the ball, whatever) that compels him. But I think this is not at all what dog trainers are referring to when they use the phrase compulsion training. agreed, but should they?
I mean, even in regards to classical "compulsion based training" the trainer is not compelling the dog, the aversive is....the trainer simply presents/applies the aversive
so what is the difference between an aversive compelling a dog, and a reward compelling the dog?
-Matt |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21508 - 08/29/2002 12:38 PM |
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Matt
To take it to your point, then there is no inducive training, only compulsive. How did the extreamist, to use your example, become compelled to do anything for his?her cause? They were promised something. "bribed" Then they were compelled to do something.
I think OCD would be much easier to explain, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
This sure seems part of it. Or are we all just being anal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Inducive makes you happy, compulsive makes you wish you were happy again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21509 - 08/29/2002 12:43 PM |
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I think an important point has been made here, and that is that "compulsion" in the vernacular of dog training, is not as broad as the dictionary's definintion of the word.
I don't consider inducements such as food rewards, play rewards, etc., to be compulsion, because the dog chooses to work for those things. Perhaps he chooses to work for these things simply due to his innate drives to eat, to kill prey, etc., which are impulses that the dog has no control over, in other words, DRIVES. Maybe it's not a conscious "choice". I think that's probably what VanCamp is trying to say.
BUT, I think that there is a difference between using drive (motivation?) and compulsion (physical force). When I think of compulsion, I think of force. Usually physical force. In extreme cases, such as starving a dog and only feeding him when he performs, then I suppose that could be a form of compulsion. But that's generally not what we're talking about when we talk about dog training.
Lisa & Lucy, CGC, Wilderness Airscent
Western Oregon Search Dogs |
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Re: Compulsion Definition
[Re: Robert VanCamp ]
#21510 - 08/29/2002 12:44 PM |
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Originally posted by oldearthdog:
Matt
To take it to your point, then there is no inducive training, only compulsive. no there is inducive training, it uses rewards to compel
where as, aversive training uses aversives to compel.
my point is, I believe that all classical training methods are compulsive by denotation.. but that is irrelevant, because decades of successful dog training has clearly set the connotation of compulsive to mean punishment based. and yes, we are being incredibly anal!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
-Matt |
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