 Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#244659 - 06/29/2009 09:58 AM |
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I was wondering what sports desire a calm grip. Since I don't do sport I didn't want to hazard a guess. Thanks for clearing up that question for me, Geoff.
I have watched my share of sport competitions though. Whenever I see a dog that exhibits the behavor like yours, it always makes me smile.
Howard
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Howard Knauf ]
#244693 - 06/29/2009 03:49 PM |
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Totally agree w/Howard and Geoff. To generalize about such behavior is ridiculous. There are numerous reasons, and that widespread Sch. generalization like Alyssa stated is precisely why I don't do Sch.
I would MUCH rather have the strong dog who brings a fight, escalates a fight, rises to the occasion of a fight, and WINS the fight than a sleeve sucker who hangs on calmly and runs around in a circle w/his prize, possibly oblivious to the fact that sometimes a threat is real and this could get him or someone else killed . I like the dog who spits the sleeve and goes back after the man, or at least keeps a watchful eye on the guy...but hey, I'm twisted. ;-)
I understand perfectly why this behavior is not desired in some sports, however.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Howard Knauf ]
#244694 - 06/29/2009 03:57 PM |
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Yeah whenever I hear the stereotypical saying "The Dog has a full calm grip" I always smile and nod myself.
Like I'm sure the wolves and coyotes when they are taking down a deer they are worried about a full calm grip themselves.  They are rippers and slashers in the wild until they get the prey animal on the ground anyways. Cripes even Great White Sharks rip and slash and let the prey bleed out before going in for the coupe de grace.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#244697 - 06/29/2009 04:02 PM |
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Nor are they always full and calm when engaged in a real fight. I think it can aligned to a certain degree with how seriously the dog takes the situation, and also how much the dog likes the fight. I like to know my dog fights harder the more pressure is applied. I think there is a good chance that a lot of the calm grippers will fall off and back down under true pressure, and when it comes to real life, I'd rather KNOW the dog's thresholds than guess. I think too much in sport is merely choreographed conditioning to stimulus (such as a stick hit) and not indicative of the dog's true temperament. Therefore, the dog could either be much stronger or much weaker than he/she appears...if I made any sense at all.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#244701 - 06/29/2009 04:16 PM |
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That makes sense Jenni. Though like Alyssa and I pointed out some sports specifically SchH/IPO and to a lesser extent NVBK look for a different thing for their programs. That is not a bad thing but having a dog that is a thrasher will be a lot harder to get to being a real point dog in those sports.
To me I like seeing what the dog offers naturally and go with that. I actually started off trying SchH and I know she wouldn't have been a high points SchH dog without a lot of work on tempering her prey and fight drive. But that would've squished the dogs natural tendencies. That to me wasn't worth it.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#244702 - 06/29/2009 04:20 PM |
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Totally agree. Especially your last statement. I don't like changing who the dog is (or masking, it rather) just for points. Find something that suits the dog or don't do it. JMO.
I know one of mine wouldn't make a good Sch. dog at all...and all for the same reasons that are the reasons I think he's outstanding. I could condition him, title him, and he would probably do ok...but I wouldn't change him for the world. Just not worth it for a few points. Instead, I do things w/him that bring out and work WITH his natural tendencies.
To each his own; I do think it's a slippery slope though when we start breeding dogs specifically to excel at certain sports. I think we lose balance and NATURAL drives in favor of over the top prey/play or maybe full calm grips, or other singular qualities instead of concentrating on a well-rounded, strong dog.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#244711 - 06/29/2009 06:03 PM |
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To each his own; I do think it's a slippery slope though when we start breeding dogs specifically to excel at certain sports. I think we lose balance and NATURAL drives in favor of over the top prey/play or maybe full calm grips, or other singular qualities instead of concentrating on a well-rounded, strong dog.
Oh yeah .. SchH is undoubtably the most popular protection sport and Ringsport has been playing second fiddle to SchH in popularity for years. But one of my biggest beefs now is the plethoria of breeders that breed Malinois for SchH only. To me that is doing the breed a disservice. When I look at a breeder I want to see a total cross pollination of disciples from Ring, SchH SAR, PSD, Herding etc etc. A well rounded breeding program whose progeny title in not just one discipline will consistently produce well -rounded dogs.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#244712 - 06/29/2009 06:08 PM |
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: randy allen ]
#244713 - 06/29/2009 06:17 PM |
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But if Sch. were truly the test it was designed to be, and not the GOAL, we wouldn't have to worry about any of it now, would we?
Don't change the dog to fit the sport. Geez.
Rather, the sport should be a test of a well-rounded dog.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#244714 - 06/29/2009 07:12 PM |
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Hmm. This topic is making me second guess SchH training.
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