You said the dog knew the command before you were doing corrections, but he wasn't sitting in the right position. . .not close enough. . .guess what. . .HE DIDN'T KNOW THE COMMAND!!!

I also do similiar to Lee.Lots of restrained recalls with ball or toy reward. For the front sit.. with a young dog.. I start with the dog in a sit.. then I place myself in front..where I would want him to end up.. I feed him in that position... once he is comfortable there.. I will back up a step..and draw him in.. and feed again.. as soon as he is coming in just that step consistantly, I try to stop drawing him in.. and hope that my movement back brings him in.. then I spit food to him from my mouth. to reward.

Glad to see others agree that using Compulsion at this age (-6- months)not WISE. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Looking forward to getting my first Working Line GSD soon. Doing alot of research on different lines and types. (czech, DDR, West German)Sport vs. PSD Bloodlines. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

I wanted to try and compete in SchH with my male Akita, he is too dog aggressive for any type of trials. I wish he weren't but he is.

David and Brandon have good foundation ideas on this. I agree: Corrections to a sit when doing a sit-front should be positive only or the dog will have avoidance problems. This added stress will further enhance the dog's flawed front.

David Morris wrote:

I train the sit front on a six-foot lead. Sit the dog six feet away, hold the leash against my hip with one hand and hold treat under my belt line with the other hand, call dog and start walking backwards, when the dogs nose gets to the treat I stop walking and the dog gets the treat when it sits. The dog learns to come in close and it stays straight because it's moving forward. Works pretty good for me.

I will add a few variants for those interested in perfection of this technique. I use a chalk line or long line on the ground at first. I use it a guide and keep backing up until I see the dog’s top-line center to the crop of the tail.

As soon as he is lined up straight I command Sit and do a small hop of 5-6 inches with feet together. This small but significant action gets the dog move up and forward under his own motivation to receive the reward and this eliminates the rocking backward sits of many dogs who where taught bad sitting habits.

The dog must be close and straight or I withhold the reward and move backwards with a quiet none-distracting command of Heerree… and keep repeating the until we get it right.

I teach eye-contact gets the reward so the dog must look up and strait into my eyes for payday and not at the gifty or treat in hand.

Do this sit-front method only 4-5 day at the most but do it everyday. In less then two weeks or less your dog’s sit-front after recall will be fabulous. Do not teach a finish or incorporate the finish until the dog does extremely nice fronts. Then teach the finish separate from the front but sitting the dog and moving yourself to the front position as to not teach anticipation habits that will gig you later. Incidentally I teach a formal recall that is simply get over here by using only the dogs name and if I say a command HERE the dog knows to front. In this way I don’t over train the formal sit-front recall and I am consistent in my training throughout the normal day-to-day interaction with my dogs.

Good Luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Dennis,
Jusy wondering does the dog feel a correction on the short hop.
Also just to explain something in my earlier post,I only treat the dog under the belt line in the begining till the dog is consistently touching its nose to the spot,then I go to treating from the mouth.Seems like sometimes if I start treating recalls from the mouth I end up with a dog rocking back as it looks up.
Something else to add is I have seen some very nice straight sits on the recall done with dowel rods in each hand.You can keep your hands at your side and operate the rods from there.It doesnt mean you smack the dog but use them as reminders to what you want while you keep yourself in the correct position.

The only thing I don't like about the suggestions to back up until the dog is straight is that this rarely achieves the goal of the dog learning that it is HIS responsibility to position his body in a straight line with mine. When you always back up, the dog relies on your movement. They don't learn how to line themselves up independently. My philosophy is that I never move; he has to move. I'm the fixed target and he has to learn to line up with me, regardless of his approach angle, without any movement from me.

The only thing I don't like about the suggestions to back up until the dog is straight is that this rarely achieves the goal of the dog learning that it is HIS responsibility to position his body in a straight line with mine. When you always back up, the dog relies on your movement. They don't learn how to line themselves up independently. My philosophy is that I never move; he has to move. I'm the fixed target and he has to learn to line up with me, regardless of his approach angle, without any movement from me.

David the dog does not get a correction so a loose lead is important. What you said is correct I think Lee, however the dog is targeting the position and moving on their own to the target. About every 4th time I hold the position as a statue. The guiding by using a fenced ‘V’ into the handler works and I have used it. I have also used and still use a climb to front on a narrow board for dogs who where allowed bad habits for sit front.

But it is not rare to get a good sit front from the methods David and I outlined. I teach it all the time and it works. The key is the command of sit while the dog is still moving under his own desire to be rewarded. You do not position the dog but like the cones or fence you have offered a direction to follow. The cones and fence or the small step to front methods all work well but I have not seen these methods offer an improvement of the obtaining the exact position over the backing up methods unless you are comparing it to an compulsive sit while backing up.

I have seen a big difference when the dog was taught by the handler moving in order to make the dog correct vs. the dog learning to move himself BEFORE sitting down. You can park the dog behind you and recall him and he'll be very conscious of his rear end and line it up straight before sitting, or you can pivot in place and the dog will sidestep or leap right over into a straight front. I don't see that kind of understanding of how to control their body from dogs who rely on the handler to back up.

I have seen a big difference when the dog was taught by the handler moving in order to make the dog correct vs. the dog learning to move himself BEFORE sitting down.

Lee there is a huge difference in the dog already sitting and then the handler moving into correct position to make it “look” correct.

But to say the dog is not learning correct position when done as I stated simply is wrong. The dog is learning to move himself before he sits. That is the point. The dog learns to SELF-CORRECT to exact position or no reward is given. The handler must be aware and continue to demand good position before giving the command.

This is one easy way to train many dogs and again it works not on a just a few dogs over the year and years. I like the method because little extra equipment is needed and many will get the results when done correctly..like many techniques.

I do use guides for insistent crooked sitting dogs but only to fix the problem. There is nothing wrong with using the guides from the start but it is impractical for many on the field to learn this or practice it at home.

The dog does learn to target the front if you demand eye contact and centering. Why don’t you think the dog learns to find the position?

If we demand they achieve it correctness to be rewarded and use the timing of the reward to emphasis this correctness the dog learns correctness. Those dogs that don’t; probably let the dog sit before they are lined up and even worse reward the crooked front.

The dog knowing they must get eye-contact to be rewarded centers well to the eyes and the position of the reward.

I just have not seen it be effective as a method for teaching a dog to control its rear end, which is where the offense occurs. You can make eye contact, touch belt buckles, touch chest to knees all day long, and in the dog's little pea brain, he's correct, but meanwhile the rear end is still stuck out to the side. By backing up, you accidentally make the dog sit correctly, but it isn't because the dog recognized the need to move and align his rear end. He's simply following you and trying to get in close to trigger that food/ball reward. By getting him to follow you, you cause his spine to straighten, but that's not the learning I'm looking for. You can see tons of national competitors with this same problem, and they fix it by backing up to cause the dog to be straight, but then you see the ones that really have taught their dog "butt mechanics" and it's a totally different picture. Those are the dogs who can come over the hurdle at a vicious angle and yet still sidle over to get straight for the dumbbell presentation. THey are few and far between.