Hmmm.

I know what you mean about trainers and that's why you have to find the right person. Keep in mind, the right person is probably not ten minutes away.

I disagree about not being able to see hackles raised. If they were raised, you would see it. It is possible that this dog simply has not ever met another dog and doesn't know how to behave.

The collar thing is weird. This makes me think she has a good reason for this behavior and it is not genetically based. It sounds to me like the dog may not have been treated too kindly and she is simply looking out for #1. I would worry more about bonding w/this dog and building trust, meaning not pushing her too much at once, and see if you make any progress. They need to form a plan and stick with it. This dog needs to learn that her new owners are fair and consistent, b/c obviously the last ones weren't.

Call it a gut feeling (one that could be 100% wrong) but from these little tidbits, I think we have a dog who has always felt like she was on her own and is going to take some time to learn that life is give and take, but her owners are fair. She may not be genetically the strongest dog, but I do think this behavior is more survival based and learned than it is genetic. JMO.

 Quote: JessicaKromer

Out of curiosity...

Does your friend live alone or with a family? Kids or others who are at risk would change a lot on how I would handle the situation...

Also, how much experience does she have with dogs in general and aggressive and or fearful dogs specifically? In other words, is she equipped to deal with this?

Lamaar, who are you training with? Will your TD take a look or give advice?

The first half of the post did sound very much like a stubborn dog that for nearly four years has been allowed to be in charge, whether she can handle it or not... It will be a tough one to fix, but if your friend is up to it, it could likely be done. But it will take a commitment and realistic expectations.

I would seriously go the whole social isolation route that Ed has outlined and start over with her...

There is nobody else around that has to deal with this dog. No kids or other people that have to be involved in the dogs life. I see the dog all the time, but never do anything to work with the dog as if I were, I wouldn't have been here asking advice.

On a side note, the dog also seems to act differently with my friend compared to strangers. A stranger can touch that collar area and the dog will not growl as fast. She has never growl as far as I know with anyone else but myself and my friend, but I also think that is due to not letting people pet her for that long. Now, nobody does at all so again, this dog interacts with nobody and no dogs. Only person who does anything is my friend. To most people, this dog would just be a friendly dog. I think this dog is just more comfortable outside. I think if this dog were to be made into an outdoor dog, she is a lot easier to work with out there and when in the house has no want to do anything but sleep. And also, if left outside, no need to worry about a collar coming off and on constantly. But my friend will not get rid of this dog so that isn't much of an option.

I haven't asked any advice but I will see what he will say about this situation. She has been to the field, but she doesn't do anything. She is calm and collected. Doesn't bark, not scared and can be handled with ease. Not perfect, but she will not growl as fast and can be handle a little bit more. But I only feel this is due to being a lot less handled outside so once my friend starts taking atvantage of this, I would be worried the dog would begin to be a more dangerous dog outside as well. Now this is only due to touching the dog's collar region or physically moving her. If she gets something in her mouth, she will not give it to you without a fight. Leave it command hasn't worked so well as this dog is picky. So when something goes in her mouth, it won't come back out.

I believe this dog is stubborn and afraid of change. My friend is determined to work with this dog so from that perspective it is a great thing. I have have talked about the expectations and they are realistic goals. My friend doesn't have experince with this case from a personal standpoint so that is where a professional comes into play. I can't really help nor do I really want to DIRECTLY because there is a different relationship with the dog, and nobody really wants to see their dog working for someone else but not themselves.

I will mention social isolation again as it is has been tried for well over a month and it seemed to have no affect on this dog.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Hmmm.

I know what you mean about trainers and that's why you have to find the right person. Keep in mind, the right person is probably not ten minutes away.

I disagree about not being able to see hackles raised. If they were raised, you would see it. It is possible that this dog simply has not ever met another dog and doesn't know how to behave.

The collar thing is weird. This makes me think she has a good reason for this behavior and it is not genetically based. It sounds to me like the dog may not have been treated too kindly and she is simply looking out for #1. I would worry more about bonding w/this dog and building trust, meaning not pushing her too much at once, and see if you make any progress. They need to form a plan and stick with it. This dog needs to learn that her new owners are fair and consistent, b/c obviously the last ones weren't.

Call it a gut feeling (one that could be 100% wrong) but from these little tidbits, I think we have a dog who has always felt like she was on her own and is going to take some time to learn that life is give and take, but her owners are fair. She may not be genetically the strongest dog, but I do think this behavior is more survival based and learned than it is genetic. JMO.

Sorry for the delayed response. I was writing that response when my internet went out for about an hour. I didn't want to lose it so I just left the page up.

Not too worried about trainers. Even though I have 4 clubs within 20-30 minutes of me I still drive to a club about an hour or so away because I like it better. And the last trainer whom I was told was a great one to deal with an aggressive dog was well over 3 hours one way and I had no problem doing that. If I tell my friend, they will go, I will make sure of that.

Correct with the hackles. That is exactly what I was meaning to say. I don't think she knows how to behave. I was going to put it, but it started out sounding to confusing. I am a much better talker than I am a writer so I am sorry for the confusing information.

Collar is a funny one. She isn't hand shy and was raised on a flat collar. Never walked because she is the type of dog to get to a certain plot of grass and just completely stop moving. You would literally drag her while she was on her belly before she would finally give in to move again. This has been fixed as she was overweight and would just be too tired/too hot to move. She will now walk, and has lost about 15-20 lbs since my friend has had her. I believe she had to have an ear injury as she has a bald spot around one of them. She also doesn't like her ears touched but that is a seperate issue than the collar as it could be a buckle collar and she still would act aggresive. Also, when she was first brought home, she was always on a buckle. I believe she was growling right away. Her growling has become more prominant as the months have been going by. She has not been hit by my friend, but has been corrected for the aggression. She is well treated and is definitely rewarded when she does well. But with a dog who never knew this, she seems to be a little dense in this department. Actually more stubborn than anything else. The more my friend works it seems, the more the dog seems to growl about every little thing. This includes when the dog gets corrected either with the collar or the word no. When you give a strong correction, she immediately switches to defensiveness.

I agree with your gut feeling. My friend is having a hard time building trust with this dog as I feel that the dog might think the ones closest to it always hurt her. But then again, I see this dog everyday and it acts differently with me than my friend. Who knows, but either way, I will give my friend the advice and figure something out with this dog. Thank you. And by all means, feel free to ask me more questions.

Lamarr, I'm not attempting to give any advice here, but what does your friend do when the dog growls at her?

I wondered the same thing but forgot to ask. Could the dog be again getting inadvertantly rewarded for growling? If my dog got a treat and then growled at me over it, they would lose the treat, pronto, and it'd be a long wait for another one. If the dog is distrusting of the owner based on the dog's previous circumstances, it's possible that the dog growls, new owner backs off, dog gains comfort in the ability to control the new owner, and is thus rewarded.

Could this be possible? I ask b/c I have worked w/a few dogs w/growling issues and it was almost always b/c the owners would immediately back off when the dog growled. . One of them was a 6mo old Golden pup. They would bother him, then he would growl, and they would stop. They had practically taught the dog to growl and had no idea. I watched him for a weekend and he tried it w/me. I corrected him once, hard, for growling at me when I gave him his food, and apparently, he never did it again, LMAO. They called me all excited a few days later that he "just stopped growling." Hmmm, I wonder why.

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

Lamarr, I'm not attempting to give any advice here, but what does your friend do when the dog growls at her?

This is where the issue kicks in and I have been asking what to do in this situations. If the dog gets corrected for growling, it will jut growl louder or attempt to bite. If you yell no, it will growl louder or attempt to bite. If you keep your hands there, the dog will calm down, growl, or attempt to bite depending on the situation. If the dog can't breathe, she calms down, but again, it doesn't get the collar off which is why it is difficult.

For the most part, the only place to do nothing is around the collar. All other tasks, if she growls and you don't move, she will attempt to bite. And by move, I don't mean your body, just move your hands. With the collar, she will stop growling but as soon as you start moving again, she starts growling again. But if you don't get the collar off fast enough, she will again try to bite. It is self rewarding in this situation which is why it is so difficult to correct. And also, she will do this with a collar left on and you are trying to go connect a leash to it as well. So it is hard to figure out what to do. I have better luck with this part than my friend, but even so the dog is very uncomfortable and it isn't my dog.

Again, all of this changes day to day as to how she growls and or attempts to bite. But on a good day, she will growl. On a bad day, she barely growls and attempts to bite.

 Quote: jenni williams

I wondered the same thing but forgot to ask. Could the dog be again getting inadvertantly rewarded for growling? If my dog got a treat and then growled at me over it, they would lose the treat, pronto, and it'd be a long wait for another one. If the dog is distrusting of the owner based on the dog's previous circumstances, it's possible that the dog growls, new owner backs off, dog gains comfort in the ability to control the new owner, and is thus rewarded.

Could this be possible? I ask b/c I have worked w/a few dogs w/growling issues and it was almost always b/c the owners would immediately back off when the dog growled. . One of them was a 6mo old Golden pup. They would bother him, then he would growl, and they would stop. They had practically taught the dog to growl and had no idea. I watched him for a weekend and he tried it w/me. I corrected him once, hard, for growling at me when I gave him his food, and apparently, he never did it again, LMAO. They called me all excited a few days later that he "just stopped growling." Hmmm, I wonder why.

I think I just answered this above as we posted at the same time. She is a talker, but when corrected, will not stop. Out of all the things I have listed, choking her is the best bet as she will calm down. But it doesn't get the collar off or build trust. Like I said, it is self rewarding because if you take the collar off or leave it on, her growling and or biting attempts win out. Does that make sense?