Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
True but they also learn it by saying nothing as long as you step out with the same foot every time and pair it with a heel command every time. If the dog is looking at your face, he doesn't see your feet.

True but he does hear the heel command each and every time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

So without demanding eye focus (most people do not)my statement is still true.

Deanna, dogs have a wide periferal vision. Besides, have you seen any police k9s looking at their handlers face all the time? Or pets for that matter (during a walk)? Any advanced Ob dog doesn't NEED to. He watches you and everything else alternately and can always see your feet (thigh actually) if he is in a sit at your side...

Most dogs, when SITTING in heel position ARE looking to their handler to see what he wants next - if they have been trained properly.

I agree that starting with the correct foot when heeling is important - but I don't it's critical.

Getting back to the originalquestion!!!!

"STAY-WASTED COMMAND?"
The opinion below is not from a pro dog trainer, just a old CAJUN from Louisiana.
The words stay can and should be used when working with dogs in a relaxed none working atmosphere.

Examples: stay/ when kennel gate is open
stay/ when I go through the door first
stay/ when in the back of a pickup
stay/ when ever i want muy dog to not
move and him be free of a working
command.
stay/ when you don't want them to move

This allows the HANDLER/OWNER the freedom of not using working commands for every required behavior. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think the biggest benifit is it takes pressure off of the dog when not required.!!!! Most are under constant pressure when with the HANDLER/OWNER. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Then again these are are thoughts of someone that's not a pro dog trainer or much of any type dog trainer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

So the stay means what really?

Answer: A chance for the dog to fail when it counts if not told to sit stand or down when you want the dog not to move.

A good trainer pet or otherwse does not have the dog under a commanded position. The dog in normal mode is in fact free. Best way to train is not let the dog make the mistakes so dont over command the dog.

When in service I need the dog to not only stand sit or down but to key off with lud aggressive barks on moment and be completly silent the next.

In point to point movement he is tld to down and is taught to say down untill told to move with either voice or hand signal.

He come and drops to side fo cover and without being told he knows to stay iunless told to move or reposition.

I realy don't care if a trainer uses stay if it is natural to them to do so but it is a wasted command.

Dennis posted:

 Quote:

So the stay means what really?

Answer: A chance for the dog to fail when it counts if not told to sit stand or down when you want the dog not to move.

Dennis, could you explain your reasoning to the above quote??

I understand that any command should not be broken for what ever reason. Command should be held until released by another command or let free.

What does this have to do with the dog failing when it counts. Very seldom a dog fails, it's the Handler/Trainer that fails the dog.??

Simple questions from a simple mind. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok.

In the case where the dog is expected to “stay” but has not received a command directive as to whether he should sit or down or stand the dog will decide then what it is he is expected to do unless you pair another command.

If I simply command my dog stay, do I mean stand and stay in place? Some folks will command stay and really they expect the dog to stand in place. Why not use stand as the command?

By making an arbitrary word that in reality will mean sit-stay or down-stay or stand-stay we place an extra word on location and not position. The position is clearer to the dog then an arbitrary local within a training area.

Here is another concern: The German word for stand is phonetically a lot like stay to the ear. This is but one glaring problem for of for those who train both German and English commands.

Another problem from a professional standpoint is a need for uniformity in training styles though the technique I use may vary depending on the dog’s needs and handler’s ability. Perhaps if you own one dog and train only your own dogs then the stay may not be a problem.

My final reason about not using STAY as a command is based in the utility of the commands I need to use. If you are training with others and you train several dogs having a consistent method is important. Since some of the dogs I work with learn English, Russian, Byelorussian, Dutch and German depending on client requirements the use of the word STAY is not only a waste of time but allows greater opportunity for training confusion and mixed command messages.

Better the dog hears over and over a reinforcement of his position to remind him of what he is supposed to do exactly or he might get injured in some of the training. Going to a colorful blind is one thing; going into a dark unknown building with explosive entry locked and loaded is quit another. These high stress environments mandate clarity and a down means one thing: Drop fast and don’t move.

Dennis, you can teach a stay, which may mean "do nothing", just like any other position.

I agree VC I say: Free for a do nothing command.