The poop goal is formed logs, not a "pile."

A pile comes from feeding food that's more appropriate for an herbivore.

I'm not doubting you (well, a tad), but I would love to see a side standing view and one from above of the dog of a 125-pound dog who is not too heavy. Do you have a photo to link us to?

(Your vet may be afraid to speak up, BTW. Wouldn't be the first time.)

And of course, you may be 100% correct and I will hang my head in shame.

One more PS:

You will find better sources than the supermarket butcher counter. I just want to be clear that your goal is to replicate the whole dead prey, not the meat-removed frame.

To start, it's easier for almost everyone to look at the chicken meat-to-bone ratio (the whole bird -- not, for example, the breast alone) for your idea of what you are looking to replicate.

Backs are lovely -- cheap, soft bones, perfect. You want to adjust the backs to match a whole animal, so if they are bony, you add muscle meat, etc.

Starting with simple skinned (at first) backs is a nice easy start. And cheap!

Now that I'm looking at the pics I'm not so sure. See how his chest sticks out in the front that's like skin I thought maybe that was a GSD trait. I always thought his chest was too flabby, but you'd think my ing vet would tell me to put him on a diet with his cruciate problem and the surgery not an option because of his weight. Sheeesh, why tread delicately he's supposed to be helping my dog. Of course if he's overweight that might mean more trips to the vet... http://cid-43720620e7b71c92.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/New%20album%20%7C53%7C6?nl=1&uc=2&isFromRichUpload=1

Your dog has the dreaded pickle shape.

This diet change will be wonderful for him. You couldn't do anything more seriously good for his overall health than this.

Shame on your vet, but believe me when I say that they are so used to fat overfed dogs that it's not something most of them dare to jump on.

Unfortunately. Because it's a major health problem.

BTW he (vet) said cruciate surgery in dogs over 100 lbs has a very low success rate and he wouldn't recommend it. So now the question is what is Chief's ideal weight? Keep in mind I walk him twice a day (2-3 miles) but don't encourage him to run with the other two as his leg often gives out and results in severe lameness. Maybe he needs 2.5 lbs a day?

Vets are so used to seeing fat dogs (plus, fat dogs make them more money!) that they don't say much until the dog is so fat it's wider than it is long. Many of us hear that our dogs are too skinny from vets, when in fact they are in perfect, athletic shape, but no one recognizes that since no one ever sees it.

This will be great for him! Try 2.5lbs and see how he does. I don't worry much about amounts; I just adjust up and down based on the dog's condition, but you will need to pay more attention when he gets to the desired shape....like an hourglass, not a pickle or potato. ;-)

 Quote: michelle pociask

BTW he (vet) said cruciate surgery in dogs over 100 lbs has a very low success rate and he wouldn't recommend it. So now the question is what is Chief's ideal weight? Keep in mind I walk him twice a day (2-3 miles) but don't encourage him to run with the other two as his leg often gives out and results in severe lameness. Maybe he needs 2.5 lbs a day?

Hi Michelle,
If you start the transition to raw nice and slowly, like Connie suggested, with small portions and relatively little fat (from skinning the RMBs), your dog may naturally start to loose a little weight. If all goes well and you can start to incorporate more ingredients into his meals without stomach upset, which would be great, just continue to keep the portions small. Rather than shooting for an "ideal" weight that you're not actually sure of, I'd instead concentrate on getting weight loss started and aiming for the right SHAPE, rather than weight in pounds. You want to be able to see his waist - viewed from above, the silhouette should "tuck in" between the end of the rib cage and the hips. You should also see a tuck UP behind his belly when viewed from the side (some dogs naturally have more or less of a tuck up, but it shouldn't be a straight line from lowest point of belly to groin).

When looking for chicken backs, try asking for "soup parts" - chicken backs are often lumped together and sold for this purpose. If it's a proper butcher that breaks down birds in-house into all the popular cuts for human consumption, they WILL have backs SOMEWHERE that you should be able to get hold of, it's just not something they regularly give a lot of attention to, as few people want them.

And in regards to the cruciate tear - there are multiple types of surgery for CCL repair in large dogs, and MANY large dogs (over 100lbs) successfully recover from them and go on to lead active lives. A dog's weight will absolutely be a factor in his/her recovery (it can also play a large part in the occurrence of the injury itself), but the prognosis for a lean, healthy dog who just happens to be a large breed can in fact be good. There are a ton of individual factors to consider regarding whether to chose a surgical option for CCL repair, but you don't need to rule it out simply because you have a large breed (you may just want to wait till he's lost some weight). I can PM you some links if you want...

~Natalya

The links would be great, thanks. I'm defrosting my freezer and have a butcher in mind who does chicken for the intital feeding of the backs. I bought chicken leg quarters last night on sale for $.68 a lb and then saw them in a flyer for $.48 a lb.(Guess where I'm headed after the butcher's.) It's funny because I think because America is fat so I've grown accustomed to "extra meat" if you will. My friend's Rotty always looked too thin to me, but if I go by what I've learned in just this one thread, she is perfect!

 Quote: Michelle Pociask

The links would be great, thanks.

PM sent... it's a bit of a novel, but I hope it helps.

~Natalya