Kali, why do you feel that an alpha roll is a necessary part of ensuring your dominance with your dogs. I don't understand why that is necessary, when there are so many other more subtle and effective ways? With most dogs, rank issues and dominance are really such a rare occurance, I wonder why such a drastic technique is necessary. Can you explain why you think that is working for your dogs and you?

I think that 99% of the dogs out there are really not even dominate and whatever level of self assurance a dog has is usually missread as dominance, making alpha rolling dogs that are not rank (in an aggressive way) WAY over the top. Even if done in a nice way. I'd say that 98% of the time basic obedience training is sufficient. . .often more than sufficient.

What kind of training do you do with your dogs? I'm going to assume it is not a working discipline that includes protection because alpha rolling a protection candidate is a mistake, also my opinion.

I wouldn't really call what Kali is doing an Alpha role. To really be an Alpha role it really has to involve force. That is the purpose of the exercise, it is a demonstration that "I am stronger than you and I can prove it". What Kali is doing is the best method of establishing leadership, obedience commands.

A true alpha roll with a dominant dog is going to be dangerous. It is going to put your face and hands way too close to a dog that is likely to try and assert it's dominance. That means biting. In addition once you have started the fight is on and you better not lose. I have never believed that starting a fight with your own dog is a good idea, especially with one that will likely fight back. There are just so many better ways to accomplish the same goals.

Like most of you I don't think a Alpha roll or any of the method of rolling to declare dominance is a proper way to train. Ob and proper correction after certain age is a more positive way to train. Just my opinion.

The only "Roll", I'd recommend would be in testing puppy temperment, and with this test if the puppy fight you let it up and assume that it will be sorta dominant or strong willed. So it wins if it fights and if it submits you try to teach it to be more positive, or place it with a older person, or family with young kids.

The tactic used by this woman, I wouldn't call her a trainer is improper, if you want a confidence. She really ruining these puppies, so they don't even have a chance. Once again this is just my opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So know that we all agree that she is a terrible trainer who should be shot or at least seriously mamed- How do I go about becoming a dog trainer? I am not looking to do it over night-and I want to get my own dog finished with his training before I start a new venture. I am looking to do it say in 2 years from now. Where do I find a good school-is a certificate needed or can people just go out and do it(I hope not). Is it better to go to an academy or can you do it in home by video? Or am I completely crazy for thinking this? I am looking to do this for the sakes of the puppies/dogs and the people so there is a good trainer in the area, not to make money or anything like that. Any feedback would be great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dee Dee,

As has been suggested before:

1-Tom Rose School

2-Triple Crown Acadamy

3-Find a good Trainer and apprentice.

Hey Rich-what about Tarheel Canine Training, Inc? And thank you I will look at these <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dee Dee, check your PMs.

Dee

If you are thinking of becoming a serious professional trainer one of the schools would be quickest and best approach. The video tapes and seminars will be used to keep your training up to date. Being a trainer is a on going field because like school teaching or martial art training its constantly tested and changing for the best.

Being an apprentics you are working and learning when he (the trainer) has the time, you would mostly be a flunky and observer or decoy. You learn a lot but its slow going compared to a class room setting. Probably more hands on.

From a person wanting to travel the same course. You gotta put the time and money in. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Kali List wrote: I will probably get hit for this, but I do use alpha rolls with puppies and dogs. When I do an alpha roll, it is done firmly, but gently.

snip

Kali List wrote: It is just a reminder to the dog that says "hey I'm in charge here, remember." It is also NOT used as any sort of correction or punishment. This technique simply lets the puppy or dog know beyond a shadow of a doubt who is boss.

LC: I’d call this a "Pinning" rather than an Alpha Roll. I use it rarely and only when a puppy is getting physical (usually biting too hard in play) and doesn’t respond to the usual mock noises of pain that I make to let the puppy know that he’s biting too hard. The next step is grabbing the muzzle and squeezing the puppy’s lips into his own teeth. I think this simulates what his mother does for the same infraction.

ian bunbury wrote: to dee dee and kali , read what lou castle has to say about alpha rolling and handler dominance issues under " big dog vs. little dog " page 4 general conversation . changed me from a roller to a non . it's good reading and will give you a new perspective .

LC: Thanks very much for this Ian. It’s good to know that I’ve had some effect out there.

Richard Cannon wrote: I wouldn't really call what Kali is doing an Alpha role. To really be an Alpha role it really has to involve force. That is the purpose of the exercise, it is a demonstration that "I am stronger than you and I can prove it". What Kali is doing is the best method of establishing leadership, obedience commands.

LC: I agree with the first part of this paragraph but the last sentence throws me. I don’t think that pinning the puppy establishes leadership. It just teaches that the handler is bigger and stronger than the puppy, something he really already knows. Leadership is established by being a fair and just leader, by earning the puppy’s trust and respect. The puppy may later follow commands out of fear of the handler, but it won’t be because he respects him as a leader. That can’t be done with one event; it takes a bit of time. But it can be UNDONE with one event, particularly if it involves violence.

Dee Dee Lulloff wrote: How do I go about becoming a dog trainer?

LC: I think a good path down that road is to volunteer at a shelter. You’ll learn to handle strange and often aggressive dogs and you’ll be exposed to a large volume of them. Many shelters do some basic work with the dogs to make them more adoptable. The path that Richard suggests, the commercial places, will also get you there but they cost $$$.

I feel the best way to show a puppy that the humans in his or her family are in control is to teach it that each reward must be earned. For almost all puppies they will (nature induced) rely on subordinate postures through reward training, rather then force. If you look for body signals when rewarding a young puppy you will note subordinate body postures. It is trying to tell you are needed for survival because. You already naturally make eye contact with the puppy and you stand tall above them so you are in puppy speak 101 the alpha apparent.

In some very hard puppies with the “energy” to over run some clients, I do recommend and teach the “settle” command. This is not an alpha roll and the technique when done right should not over dominate the dog and trigger any self-preservation mechanisms.