"The dog got a bad bite and he hit the dog in the head with his fist." I totally missed that the first time around! I saw the poor bite, but missed the hit in the head. The correct option would have been to get in a neutral position and get the dog to regrip the sleeve or to out, no?

Rather I should say neutral position and out, or regrip.

Bad sleeve presentation if on a straight bite.

Poor choice of time to correct dog for bad bite if BH, or to drive if dog was supposed to bite.

Serious dog

Failure to read dog to see what was coming.

Possibly unfamiliar with the dog, or failed to speak to handler prior to working the dog.

I agree with Mike, it was supposed to be a B&h and the helper was going to correct the dog for being dirty.

I too have specifically trained a PPD to do this when the bad guy is going to hit him with a weapon with the free hand. It's pretty easy if it's a serious dog with a lot of defense.

Hey Mike, how's it going? We met at TRS back in 98. I think you were there to pick up a Bulldog puppy from John Gabarty. Jeff Postle introduced us.

Ed sent this to me a few days ago.
Here is the scenario, helper is trying to teach B&H, dog is unsure, and helper and handler are not working well together. Helper does a piss poor job of reading the insecure albeit serious dog and tries to correct him for biting in the blind where he should be barking. Dog sees action and grabs the arm and gets instant satisfaction for his efforts. Ouch. Over all...piss poor work.

I looked at it over and over in the slowmo. I don't believe the helper ever made contact with the dog's head. It looks to me like the dog was comming off the sleeve as soon as he saw movement from the stick hand.
"May" not have happened if the sleeve was higher where the dog wouldn't have seen the hand movement. Then again if the sleeve was higher it would have been put there for the bite, not a B&H as it appears to be.
All the grinnning over his new scars should be embaressment for a crap job. Cours chicks did scars! LOL!

Yeah, normally in PP you would praise and reward for that move by the dog - If you open the video big you can see the guy has whip. could you imagine how much a dog can be screwed up by viewing any stick hit as a correction from the agitator that he must back off from - there are reasons in both PP and schutzhund.

I really dont see evidence of the dog being insecure though - unless it is meant as insecure with the exercise - which that definitely shows. totally looks like a smart learned behavior and I would say an insecure dog would have been more likely to back off and not follow up with such a solid clamp or would have done a choppier bite, Or if the agitator wasnt using a whip and the dog was releasing because he was expecting the normal stick hits (not the sting of a whip)from the learned exercise. You can see the agitator was going to STING him. I think the dog is probably an excellent example of what a working mal should be - just not trained correctly. I would take that one any day over a mal that backed down to that kind of disrespect from the agitator.

How about that 'Out' command at the end? Looks like the next exercise to practice at that club! Unless, the handler was secretly happy for her dog because I'm sure the dog had that done before to him. We always joke at our club how the owners react when their dogs bruise us bad or we have minor injury to the agitators due to muzzle partially slipping off, etc. They always act concerned for the agitator but they can't hide the "devil's grin" we call it, where we can see they are kind of secretly proud of their dog! You can see from the video that it is kind of a tribute to the dog at the agitators expense.

Phil good to hear from you! I still have John's Pup - she's my girl , Rhoda! PM if you want to catch up!

Mike,

We are going to have to agree to disagree on what you have posted here.

This dog is insecure. He is insecure in temperament and he doesn't understand the work. The helper made a serious mistake in the work. That's most obvious.

The point you miss is that a very very aggressive dog can often be very very insecure dog.

Ed

Ed,

What would you describe in the body language and behavior differences of this dog considering that he doesn't understand the work and was poorly corrected that would label him as insecure and another dog perhaps taught to do this as you used to do with police service dogs that wasnt insecure - since it seems the mal was inadvertently taught this by accident. Is it possible that there isnt enough evidence from the video alone to label him either way?

Also, would a very secure and dominant malinois not act this way if he was exposed to this whip correction on multiple occaisions from this agitator that he probably doesnt respect.

I know some schutzhund people do very little corrective obedience on their dogs until they feel the dog has mastered their bites so that they havent been exposed to being dominated by the human (i dont necessarily agree with that theory). I didnt see any evidence of strong obedience in this dog from the vid - lots of questions in my head about it.. a really good vid you posted.

I respect your experience and knowledge in this area especially and would love to get some more insight from you.

Wow. Great Vid.

I'm not experienced in bitework, but that makes me think twice about doing any helper/bitework.... Actually going to michael ellis next week........ :S

Also, seemed pretty clear the dog knew what was coming.

Oh, and again, Great Vid.