Kimberly,
Does the 8 month old dog know what the word 'no' means?

Does he obey the command at all others times or hardly ever?

Randy

How about a hardcore spiked collar - like the ones the real flock protectors wear!

Definitely have multiple problems there, but if you needed a quick fix for that one particular problem - you need to use a proper "dog god" correction. which means something that the dog doesnt asociate with you - so she wont do it even if you are present.

The next thing you want to consider is that you do not want the young dog to asociate whatever that correction is with the older dog - just the collar.

I would start by just leaving your older dogs collar on the ground with the pup in a pretty vacant room so it becomes the most inviting thing - or otherwize bait it another way.

I generally like to start off with remote citronella collars for this type of thing. The instant the pup mouths it - say nothing act like you are reading a book or something and startle with the citronella.

then, you repeat when the collar is on the older dog (citronella collar on the pup).

drawbacks you might run into - is that some dogs just really dont care about the citronella corrections and/or the older dog might get startled by it too.

The other option if you are very careful and work supervised with an experienced trainer is to use a dogra collar to do the same drill. these are the gentlest electric collars i know of.

you would do the same drill, but you ONLY use the 'nick' button. you pulse it at a fast rate at the lowest level (these have a dial that goes from 1-100 or 1-127 depending on model) then slowly increase the dial as you pulsate until the dog notices something ANNOYING not PAINFUL. you stop when the dog disengages. if you work with a trainer who is experienced using these and start at a low level you will be surprised how gentle and how unstressful it is compared to other less controlled corrections. Most the time the levels that will work are barely detectable on our fingertips. I place the collars at a slight angle on the underside of the dogs neck and tight so that it lays on the large muscle underneath NOT the trachea. this involuntarily twiches the muscle and really just confuses and annoys the dog. without joking i would say try it to yourself first to build your confidence as to what your dog is feeling - i make all my clients do it.

when this is working dont leave your dogs unsupervised and the pup without the collar for at least a month since the last time you saw the behavior. This WILL stop the behavior.

but, it is very very important that you work with a trainer on this who has experience. the biggest problem with remote collars is that if you dont use them just right you can cause more problems than you were trying to fix. It is kind of like a scapel blade that if used precisely can fix little problems well - but if used sloppily can be disasterous! I think Ed sells the dogtras - not sure have to check?

Also be sure to check out some of his literature or videos on being your dogs leader - before picking apart any nippiness toward yourself.

oh, one more thing, if you do get a dogtra dont get zap happy if that one things works, you really have to use those precisely and one thing at a time with guidance.

hope this at least opens other options so you dont revert to losing your temper. whatever you do be sure to not do anything they you feel in your heart is disrespectful to your dog - you will find an answer with patience.

First off Kimberley,
I'd stop using 'no' to proceed my commands. I fact, I don't use no at all, it sounds like too many other words. In any case though, proceeding the commands with 'no' becomes no no no no for the dog. Instead try just using the dogs name and then the command. If the command is ignored, then it becomes; 'no.....sit'. Not, nosit nosit NOSIT!

Secondly,
Don't over lap commands using the same word. If you use 'down' to get the dog off something, you can not use that same word to put the dog in a prone position. You'll need to find another word for the down position.

And I'd recommend you incorporate the command enough or a leave it into your routine. It really is a kind of no, but has a rather different connotation.
No is a command just on it's own, use it like it.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Ah...... Where to begin? I've read through the thread and you have received some great advice but (and please don't take offense to this) I think you have some preliminary stuff to get down first before you can implement a lot of it.

Two essential points to training a dog are Pack Structure and Communication. I don't think you have a handle on either one of them.

If you do not already own the pack structure and Marker training DVDs; make the investment. If you do have them; watch them repeatedly; you will learn something new everytime. Watch them with the questions you posted here in mind and see how they apply.

My next suggestion is to find a new trainer. Throwing pennies at an 8 month old puppy who has just flipped you the bird (ignoring you and biting at you when you intercede are the canine equivalent) will do nothing to change the pack dynamic or increase a dog's understanding of what you want it to do.

I would not let these dogs out together until you have more control over Tantrum's unacceptable behaviors. They can be together but Tantrum should be tethered to you so that he can never again go for Thora's collar. Everytime he does it; has just made the task of teaching him not to, that much more difficult.

Then back to square one with basic obedience. If you had proofed and slowly introduced distractions; Tantrum's responses to your commands would be more reliable. Not to mention consistancy in using the same command for the desired action everytime.

And finally; I was really happy you use hand signals! I have a feeling they probably are better understood...... (see quote below)

Since birth I have been listening to "The only thing wrong with dogs in this country are people prattling at them all day long. How can you expect them to learn anything with all that talking? A chat at the end of the day by the fire is one thing; sure there is plenty of time then to dwell on the world situation. But when it comes to a day's work; it is enough for them to concentrate on the business of being a dog and doing what is expected of them." Sage advice from my father an old Irish man with years of dog experience.