Today was much better. I separated exercise time and training time!

I spent 20 minutes with Keira outside this morning with several tennis balls for fun and running. It was some sort of play time, chase the ball and even chase me with the ball time. I NEVER used the word out. She always had a ball and I always had a ball. If she dropped it, I would throw another one. She soon figured that out and started dropping them and running back to me (or into me like old times). She seemed to enjoy this a lot more. She was even able to get two in her mouth at one time. She's rather small, but somehow managed. And was very tired later - my goal!

Later in the morning, I spent time working on 'out' inside the house with the rope bones - exchanging them with her. She was more successful and didn't shy away.

Just a minute ago, I worked inside the house for a few minutes on 'out' with tennis balls. She was getting it, but it's a LOT harder because they roll and she wants to chase them. Will probably need to work on that in the grass.

But Connie you mentioned releasing toys into your hand. I was just having her drop it on the floor. I like your idea better. Will try that next.

It really helped to see that there were two different goals here.

And yes, I do use food - lots of, in fact, - for sit, down, come, walks, getting in/out the car and going in/out the front door. This one just seems to work better with the other toys.

I would use whatever works for that individual dog. Some like toys, some food, some both.

I would not be in such a hurry to push the 'out' command again. Let her( & you ) be happy just dropping the toy, ball into your hand for a few weeks...or you may end up right back were your were when you posted about the problem. She was telling you that you were pushing too hard & that is why she shut down on you. You might even use a different word this time, (like 'drop')if she starts to associate bad feelings with rhe word 'out'. JMO

Just wanted to add that...Many of us with SchH & PPD trained dogs, didn't even train an 'out' until the dog is older. It can be a source of conflict between dog & handler, something we don't want to create.

Just for clarification, don't intend to be a source of 'conflict' for the dog. Can't imagine anyone posting here would have that as their goal!! Just trying to work with my dog - new to dog training and looking for 'friendly' advice.

I'm in no hurry to get the out command. It was one of the many things people suggested I work on. To be honest, since the light bulb went off (finally) and I realized there was another way of exercising her without the use of out, I'm not sure it's high on my list at this point. Certainly, developing good manners at the door is much more pressing in our present circumstances.

So the point has been made...out is not an urgent command especially at this age. I get it!

Are you standing still for her to bring the ball back? Have you ever tried moving away while you call her to you?

Lisa, I didn't say that you were being a source of conflict. No one is trying to do that to their dog. Just mentioning that it is one of the areas of training that CAN cause it. You showed that you are interested in doing the best for your dog, by posting your questions. Good for you & your dog. Too bad more people don't do that. Their dogs would be happier for it.

Playing mind games/mental exercise, tires a dog out, too. Like hiding treats or toys & teaching your dog to 'find it'.

Just enjoy your pup & keep it fun for both of you that is the most important thing.

Being a source of conflict isnt as bad as it looks in type. I'm sure I've conflicted my dogs plenty of times.

Yes, Steve you are probably right about it looking worse in type. But it can be a big problem, depending on the dog. My female could care less if you did or didn't, she is very high drive & has a very hard tenmperment, my male on the other hand is very drivey but is a very handler sensitive dog, & would seriously adversey effect him if I did that. Depends on the dog.

 Quote: Lisa Harvey

Just for clarification, don't intend to be a source of 'conflict' for the dog. Can't imagine anyone posting here would have that as their goal!

No, of course they don't. And a great way to learn what things can be a source of conflict (handler conflict being a common term, by the way) is when experienced trainer/handlers point them out.

 Quote: steve strom

Being a source of conflict isnt as bad as it looks in type. I'm sure I've conflicted my dogs plenty of times.

Me too.