I'd start with basic ob at a non-reactive distance (whatever that distance is for this dog), with a lot of attention to focus and keeping the sessions upbeat and fun.



I wouldn't be sad. I would congratulate myself for having hunted out this site and gotten some good advice.

Perfect timing for this Mark. Take a look at the newsletter posted today. It has good info for training attention.

 Quote: Jennifer Lee

I am no expert but I wanted to mention a couple of things in the video that would definitely set off my dog.

First is that a prong collar he is wearing for corrections? If so I have found that the prong while great for walking nicely tends to escalate my boys aggression it can push him over the edge from posturing to trying to attack.

The other thing is the horribly close proximity to the other dogs, some of whom are aggressing back when he is near them.

This in my opinion will likely only reinforce his aggressive behavior and cause more problems down the road.

I would start with working at a distance from other dogs where he can be calm and focused on you to work on basic obedience with lots of positive reinforcement and slowly over days weeks or even months work my way closer to the other dogs.

There is also a good chance you will never be able to really trust him around other dogs, but you can get his focus and obedience good enough that he will be controllable with the proper management.

Jennifer, I'm in agreement with you, as far as you went. But here are some further points.

1) the reason prong collars are so effective in many training situations, is they provide multiple stimulations simultaneously. A dog that is aggressive rarely needs MORE stimulation. They are already over stimulated. So prong collars often make the dog more aggressive.

2) The corrections were not being applied correctly for either a prong, slip or martingale. Pulling and keeping a tight leash not only is not effective, it actually encourages the dog to pull against it, and in the case of a dog trying to reach another dog aggressively, it encourages aggression.

3) Why were you and the lab owner egging your dogs on to more aggression?

4) After many of the acts of aggression, you would stroke your dog. He was already feeling self satisfied for telling other dogs off, and you were compounding it by rewarding him. I don't believe that the instant an aggressive dog pauses in his aggression he should be rewarded. Just as trainers use to praise a dog new to learning the stay as soon as they were release from the stay, and the dog still understood it was for the action just completed; it works the same way for aggression.

5) I don't think much of the trainer of the class. Almost all the dogs were being walked on a tight leashes. The trainer appeared to have little control of the class, such as not preventing aggressive dogs from getting too close to each other.

6) For the amount of weeks of training, I was appalled. I would think from the bahavior of the dogs in the class, that they hadn't moved beyong three or at most four weeks. In fact most classes I've given, except 4-H classes, the dogs are much more in control by three weeks.

Like Jennifer and others said, train at a distance from other dogs (And don't use a prong for this dog.) and only move closer when he is working reliably without any anxiousness or tension. Then shorten the distance somewhat, and repeat.

Look up previous posts from myself and others regarding desensitization for more details.

I would also look for a better trainer.

 Quote: joy van veen

1) the reason prong collars are so effective in many training situations, is they provide multiple stimulations simultaneously. A dog that is aggressive rarely needs MORE stimulation. They are already over stimulated. So prong collars often make the dog more aggressive.

Yes, Ed recommended the slip collar for this kind of aggressiveness, I will buy one ASAP and try to work with that.

 Quote: joy van veen

2) The corrections were not being applied correctly for either a prong, slip or martingale. Pulling and keeping a tight leash not only is not effective, it actually encourages the dog to pull against it, and in the case of a dog trying to reach another dog aggressively, it encourages aggression.

Yes I understand and agree, but believe me I have tried level 10/10 corrections with him, (you can see a few 7 near the end of the video) and it's not working for him as I suppose it should. Besides it's extremely challenging to slalom between those dogs with a loose leash.... I admit I can't do it plus I'm afraid each time that he will cause some damage to a labrador even with the muzzle on!

 Quote: joy van veen

3) Why were you and the lab owner egging your dogs on to more aggression?

He said that his dog wouldn't hurt anyone or anything so let's see if they get along better that with GSDs and the others, obviously it didn't work.

 Quote: joy van veen

4) After many of the acts of aggression, you would stroke your dog. He was already feeling self satisfied for telling other dogs off, and you were compounding it by rewarding him. I don't believe that the instant an aggressive dog pauses in his aggression he should be rewarded. Just as trainers use to praise a dog new to learning the stay as soon as they were release from the stay, and the dog still understood it was for the action just completed; it works the same way for aggression.

I realize that and also agree. I can just quote myself: "I didn't do petting for 7 sessions, then it was suggested by the trainer and her logic was this: I have to calm the dog... I explained that I heard from a US K9 trainer with vast experience that petting after correction is wrong and illogical. She insisted that I have to calm the dog so his aggression level gets lower. So I tried it, he didn't calm though, of course."

 Quote: joy van veen

5) I don't think much of the trainer of the class. Almost all the dogs were being walked on a tight leashes. The trainer appeared to have little control of the class, such as not preventing aggressive dogs from getting too close to each other.

Sadly that is true.

 Quote: joy van veen

6) For the amount of weeks of training, I was appalled. I would think from the bahavior of the dogs in the class, that they hadn't moved beyong three or at most four weeks. In fact most classes I've given, except 4-H classes, the dogs are much more in control by three weeks.

It must be the difference in quality of the classes :-(

 Quote: joy van veen

Like Jennifer and others said, train at a distance from other dogs (And don't use a prong for this dog.) and only move closer when he is working reliably without any anxiousness or tension. Then shorten the distance somewhat, and repeat.

Now someone mentioned that prong might be good for walking. You say I shouldn't use it at all. So what would be the method of correction when walking him (and he reacts to dogs behind fence) and when in a field alone and doing basic obedience?

Thank you for your detailed post, it was very helpful! I'm so glad that I found this forum!

Hey Mark, if you use distance like has been suggested you won't have to worry about which collar so much. You'll be working on his attention to you, not trying to stop his aggression. If he's not close enough to be reactive, nothing will escalate.

 Quote: steve strom

Hey Mark, if you use distance like has been suggested you won't have to worry about which collar so much. You'll be working on his attention to you, not trying to stop his aggression. If he's not close enough to be reactive, nothing will escalate.

Huge ditto.

My entire attention now would be on working with him at a non-reactive distance. No corrections needed or given in these sessions.

I understand, thanks! I'm ordering Michael Ellis' videos right now, I will learn everything I can about marker training and will report back in a few months. Again, thank you everyone!

 Quote: Mark Gavalda

I understand, thanks! I'm ordering Michael Ellis' videos right now, I will learn everything I can about marker training and will report back in a few months. Again, thank you everyone!

I'd start here: http://leerburg.com/219.htm

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'd start here: http://leerburg.com/219.htm

Yep, that was one of the two I ordered today.

 Quote: Mark Gavalda

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'd start here: http://leerburg.com/219.htm

Yep, that was one of the two I ordered today.

Perfect! That's the #1, and then the Power of Food is #2. Coming up is Tugs.