Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Lindsay Janes ]
#258236 - 11/30/2009 07:38 PM |
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Lindsay,
It wasn't my intention to belittle what it takes for someone with disabilities to get through a day. I, thank god, have not had to deal with that part of life....as yet. Knock on wood.
Only that, if the dogs can not be managed by the person suppossedly in charge, cycling the dogs from the house to the yard (or kennel) every two or three hours can not be that big of a chore.
If it is, rehoming the dogs is probably the best option.
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: randy allen ]
#258240 - 11/30/2009 08:03 PM |
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Yup, rotating makes the most sense to me too. I personally like crates in the house, and actual physical, fenced, separate kennels outside. For dog-aggressive dogs, anything less than a physical fence is just plain not enough.
In my experience, once they get the opportunity to fight they may never get along. I've had dogs that needed to be rotated in and out for over ten years. Once you get set up and get into the habit it's not a big deal at all. Muzzles are a good only as an insurance policy, not as the only precaution put in place. Muzzling is doing nothing to improve the situation between these two dogs which really should always be separated.
These dogs are not likely to ever stop fighting. They will likely always need to be separated.
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Kristel Smart ]
#258246 - 11/30/2009 08:39 PM |
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We rotate here. I don't like it but it is the only way for everyone to live peacefully.
They each get potty time and a little bit of play in the morning. Another potty break in the afternoon and some play in the afternoon. And then we trade them out in the evenings when everyone is home.
We were splitting the evenings in half but I think we may go to an entire evening per dog on a rotating basis.
Loki gets a whole room but Yote must be kenneled. He will respect the gate keeping him out of the room, but won't stay in a room with just a gate.
We have been doing this for almost a year and things are improving. They now do not react to eachother at all with a gate or kennel door between them. We can stand in the hallway and pet them both at the same time with the gate up.
We have also started walking them together, on opposite sides of the street, eventually we hope to walk on the same side of the street!
Mine will never be left alone together for the rest of their lives but I am confident that with time and training we will be able to have them both laying in the living room at night when we are all home.
It was really hard to do at first as it went against everything I wanted for our lives with the dogs, but it is certainly better than fighting.
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Laura Lozzi ]
#258257 - 11/30/2009 09:49 PM |
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I'm sorry Laura. I'm starting to get confused. What answer is it you want?
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: steve strom ]
#258265 - 11/30/2009 10:54 PM |
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In reference to Randy's question about the wireless fence. The dogs do go in the yard with me when I am outside. They now wear a muzzle if they are both outside at the same time and have access to each other. I do have a larged fenced in area for the dogs and usually put one in the fenced area and have the other outside the fenced area. So the get some rotation this way, weather permitting.
<p>Additionally, the dogs kennels are in the basement and my husband cannot walk down the basement steps several times a day. And No it is not possible to put the kennels upstairs they are just way too big (we tired). So while I understand and appreciate all the suggestions about rotating the dogs, it is really not an option. HOWEVER, it did cause me to think about alternate solutions and I am wondering if putting baby gates up between the rooms would be a viable alternative to crating. We could let one dog in the kitchen and the other in the living room and then rotate them between rooms. I would have to use 2 gates in each entry but I can get the ones with hinged doors and just stack them. They do not currently try to push through doors, so I think this may work.
<p>Regarding Mike Arnolds thread: I think these suggestions will work best for my house.
<p>I do have authority and whenever the dogs show bad behavior I am able to get them to stop with voice correction. Most of the fighting situations occurred while I was getting dressed and the dobie walked in the room, next thing I knew they were fighting. Another time was when I was in the garage and the dogs were let out and next thing I know a fight breaks out. After only a few fights I purchased the muzzles.
<p>While I do believe that I have leadership authority, I have not been equal in punishment, I usually only crate the one that I believe was guilty and think that crating them both may be a better solution. I also have shock collars on them and wear the remote around my neck and even the most minor behaviorial issue gets a platz command or a warning tone from the collar. I do not have to shock them because the tone always causes them to stop. I prefer to verbally correct them and the collars are only there as a backup.
<p>You are also correct in your observation that these dogs are my pets and are members of the family. We enjoy having them around.
<p>To be perfectly honest I am probably not as consistant as I should be and need to be a better drill instructor, I suppose.</p>
<p>With respect to the trainer, we were taking the dobie to Schutzund training and then my husband had to undergo several surgeries and could no longer handle the bite work training, so we continued with some of the other components at home. When the dobie was in Schutzund the Shepard was just a pup and only had the beginning basics, the dogs were not fighting at this point. They only began to fight this year.
<p>Basically, I like having the dogs around me, I love them very much and enjoy there company. They are part of my family and I am not willing to part with them. I will be more consistant in training/correction/etc. and believe that putting gates between the rooms my be the solution to the problem, then the muzzles will only be necessary when rotating them between rooms.</p>
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Laura Lozzi ]
#258275 - 12/01/2009 06:23 AM |
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Mike A.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin." Hondo, played by John Wayne |
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Mike Arnold ]
#258308 - 12/01/2009 10:54 AM |
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Laura, I would be VERY careful about using gates to seperate dogs that are willing to fight with each other. One of my pups used to body-slam the gates to get thru & go after one of my other dogs that he didn't get along with. He started this at 10 weeks old. He would just run at the gate(from only a few feet away) & throw himself into it. Only took an instant for him to do this. I would imagine that an adult dog would be able to do this jsut as quickly to say the least or just jump over it....& then the fight would be on.
Also, you had mentioned that they run & 'play' together outisde with the muzzles on....this may be 'ranking' going on & not PLAY. Just some food for thought.
MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Anne Jones ]
#259159 - 12/10/2009 06:48 PM |
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Hi Mike, Thank you for your thoughts. We have been doing as you suggest and being more consistent, it is still too early to tell but it does seem to be helping. I noticed that my GSD would get this look on his face when the doberman came in any room but putting them both in the down, on each corner of the bed, each corner of the sofa, etc., seems to have relaxed the GSD's facial muscles a bit and he has not been given the dobie the evil eye quite so much. Your ideas seem to be working, we will keep working with them and see how it goes. I am thinking that because they do not go at each other, even with muzzles on, all the time that this approach will eventually cure the problem.
<p>Hi Anne, I haven't put up the gates yet, but I understand what you are saying. Fortunately the gates bolt into the frame of the doors and I can stack one on top of the other; I have delayed doing this because when you do that they look like the door from a prison cell. Hopefully, the information from Mike will prove to be the needed fix.
<p>Thanks very much for all of your help and suggestions. Laura
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Re: Will they ever stop fighting??
[Re: Laura Lozzi ]
#259195 - 12/11/2009 08:59 AM |
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Ms. Lozzi,
There will no-doubt be a flare-up of bad behavior. Dogs have their bad days, too.
The issue for me is being in control and knowing I am absolutely in control. For every action there is a reaction. Good behavior begets good reactions - good behavior is pre-defined as no dog/dog/person aggression or possessive behavior or attitude - such as like a pat in the head, or a 'good' or treat or toy or just a nod and smile. Bad behavior begets immediate correction- and I do mean immediate - with correction defined as a look, body posture, a command 'NO', a collar correction,...
You mentioned the dog giving an evil eye. Well, my mutts have come to recognize my evil eye which amounts to a look of disgust or anger that transmitts a message of 'ENOUGH' and I do mean ENOUGH!'
It is important to understand that your attitude and bearing goes a very long way to convey a reinforcement of your rules. A rule is a rule is a rule. Breaking it can not be tolerated today and enforced tomorrow. And correction can never be revenge. Initially you have to be on top of the rules until the dogs 'get' the rules or are conditioned.
I'm more into voice conditioning than anything else. I occasionally use treats, I use a prong or good dog collar if necessary, I pet and caress, I like toys and exercise interspersed with training... I want the dog(s) to respond to my voice/command to the exclusion of other distractions - that is a primary training objective for me.
If two dogs get nose to nose, I expect my training efforts will end the behavior, and provide an immediate distraction, by merely making a sound of some kind - like 'HEY.'
Need more coffee. The message du jour is to be all over the dogs interactions like a purposeful mother hen as you condition them to act together absent attitude. Set rules, set parameters, set behaviors, be in control. Be quick to praise and be quick to intercede if there is the slightest possibility of bad behavior. It reinforces your position as the absolute leader. Sooner or later, there actions will signal that they 'get' their roles and you can be less 'there' though never complacent.
My mutts get no casual 'benefits' until they demonstrate the behaviors I want. On the couch is on my 'OK' and 'OFF' is random at my whim as they grow into my behavior set. Random 'come' just to do it. Random 'down' just to do it. Random commands, just to do them, reinforces your role and their role. You command - they comply. And in the end you have the pet you want. Frequent command and compliance takes seconds at a time throughout a day but creates a conditioned companion.
We all have our ways of working with dogs. Some are enlightened and some are not and all are in the eye of the beholder. As long as you train you to train the dogs you will be in the correct one-two order, and for sure if you are not the dogs will train you.
Devalued two more cents.
Mike A.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin." Hondo, played by John Wayne |
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