Starbuck,
I've considered this thread for a couple of days. I can not, not say anything any longer. I understand and appreciate you've grown up raising animals. That would be for food, correct?

Okay, to the business of breeding. For the dog, and I am 'not' a breeder, but I've heard very respected trainers/breeders say genetics only account for about 30% to 40% for what the final dog comes out as. And I've heard as high as 60% for what you see in front of you now. Hmmmm, let's consider that for a moment.

So no matter what I think or what you think, the experts say genetics play any where from a low of 30% to a high influence of 60% in the example you see in front of you. The remainder is nurtured. Fact: even if you cloned Zeus, you wouldn't come out with the same dog. There is just to many variables in a span that stretches years.

Now, let's think about the course you're pursuing at the moment. You want to obtain a puppy. Let us make a big leap here, Zeus really is that one exceptional dog out of a bazillion that really should be bred, what of the female you're buying? You won't know for at least close to 3 years absolute minimum if she is worth breeding to. That makes Zeus, mmmm 1 2 3, ah 7 or 8 years old. I'm not a breeder, but that sounds like a down hill slide for breeding a dog.
But in any case you're laying a lot on the line for 3 to 4 years down the road, and keep in mind the odds are very against you that you'll get a breed worthy female. Are you willing to call it off if it doesn't work in your favor?
Where are the people that want dogs now going to be in 3-4 years when you have 8 to 11 puppies needing homes?
You say you want to be responsible in this matter. Okay, think at least three years down the road......That is after you find WHAT MAY BE a suitable female, then three more years minimum to prove her.

My perspective about dogs (nature vs. nurture):

I have had 3 dogs in my adult, married life (30 years, same husband co-raising the dogs). The first dog a complete mutt, rescued at 9 months or so of age. Probably a Neufy GSD mix. Lived 16 years, no significant vet bills (ate Purina Dog Chow--I am loathe to say in this forum). BEST dog ever: good temperament, loved the kids when they came along and she was 7 years old, loyal/protective--the whole package. The second dog after the first one died, a white GSD from a "backyard" breeder. NO papers. The next BEST dog ever for the same reasons as above (probably because of how we raise a dog). But this one racked up the vet bills for 2 genetic deficiencies: Pannus and degenerative myelopathy (which is why she needed to be put down at 10 years)

I am now on the third dog and it remains to be seen how she will turn out. But, I did do research on a breeder and the breed this time.

My point: You can raise a good dog. You don't have to clone or breed one from the one you own. Making a mistake in breeding may bring heart ache. The hardest thing I ever did was put down a 10 year old alert dog because she could no longer walk...

Hope this contributes to the discussion.

This discussion has been very enlightening for me and I'd like the OP to think about a few things.

Let's say you got Zeus titled and all testing done and found the perfect female to breed him to. And let's say you did find homes for all the pups. What about when these working line pups are no longer adorable balls of fur, but are now teenagers testing boundaries. Are you prepared to take every pup back if the new owners find they're not prepared to deal with the drive and sharper temperament working line dogs tend to have (very few average pet owners are prepared)?

Why not find a breed mentor and learn from him/her exactly what breeding entails both the joys and heartaches? Because, as already mentioned, you are not going to get a dog exactly like Zeus even if you do breed him one day. Even if you got a dog from the exact breeding that produced Zeus, that dog would not be like Zeus (not even if you got one that looked exactly like him) because each dog is an individual.



Edited by Elaine Haynes (12/04/2009 07:25 AM)
Edit reason: spelling

Starbuck,
If you're bound and determined to carry through with where this thread started, let me give you an example of how a responsible caring owner handles breeding their fine specimen of a dog.

It just so happens one of the best dogs I've had in my life came about through a circumstance much like the one you're proposing. And if not for the fact that an anniversary of her death past three days ago I doubt seriously I'd tell this story at all.

Sadie was bred by a couple who like you had family and friends who wanted off spring from the big male they owned. They had seven spoken for, the dame threw 11, and two people backed out after the birth. Keep that in mind Starbuck, it happens alot more frequently then you can imagine. Just ask any breeder.

Okay, for the tale about the breeding. He was a German national married to a US citizen living in this country. He had brought with him his SchH III male Thor (I think was his name). After a few years 'everyone' they knew and everyone in the family wanted a dog like Thor. Whether he just got tired of everyone being after him or he decided it'd be a good idea, he relented and decided to oblige and bred the dog.
So him and the Mrs. went back to Germany and spent about 3 months talking to, showing peds, and getting guidance in a good match for their dog. The result was a titled SchH I bitch of a little less then tree years old they brought back home with them. Who as I said earlier threw 11 beautiful pups.

Starbuck,
What I want to point out to you in this story is the title character, our German national.
This man grew up in a country where SchH is a national sport. He grew up in a culture where SchH is a national hobby. He grew up at a time where SchH was a family pastime. He grew up with SchH dogs, he grew up knowing dogs, he grew up learning linages, they were just a part of life growing up in Germany.
And HE didn't feel up to the task of deciding on a mate for his dog or if for that matter his dog should even be bred at all.
It took 3 months (and god only knows how many letters previous to the visit) on his home turf to tip the balance toward realizing 11 puppies.

Yep, it IS that important to the people that truely care for dogs in general...............any dog.
So Starbuck, please reconsider how your going about this and if you want to do it at all.

Love the pedigree on your boy.......Sure you don't want to send him down to Floria for a while? LOL

Raising a pup for the purpose of breeding is risky. I have one 7 year old spayed girl at my feet right now that I bought at 8 weeks old with the idea of breeding. I have another girl from my breeding that I held back and I am sweating out her hip clearances.........If she doesn't pass, yet anothe spayed female!


And you have the additional complication of wanting to breed an unknown female with your boy....

I think what I would do it start going to your local clubs with your boy. By working him you will learn his strengths and his weaknesses and have a better idea of what traits you want to pick up in a female. You will meet other German Shepherd breeders and be able to pick their brains on pedigrees, different dogs, etc. And you will start building a network that will help you place those pups properly.

You may also meet the pefect girl for your boy and be able to work out something with her owner.

There you go Starbuck,
You're on your way.
Betty is what I believe to be a breeder of some repect, and she wouldn't mind taking a look at your dog.

Have you started planning for the trip yet?

I really like the pedigree......

But then I have a soft spot in my heart for some dogs that go back to Ed's breedings......

 Quote:

Betty is what I believe to be a breeder of some repect, and she wouldn't mind taking a look at your dog.

Not me, I just muddle my way thru, my breeding program is in it's infancy. LOL I have been known to stalk people that have the knowledge and experience I lack.



Psst, start honing up on your stalking skills, they are invaluable.

I do however have an excellent decoy whose opinion I would take to the bank when he evaluates a dog for me.

I'm back... Had a couple busy days. My wife is out of town and I've been holding down the fort with the kids. I have been talking with a local breeder and trainer about Zeus. His name is Russ Osburn. I am going to his place next week so we can talk about Zeus. He wanted to see him and meet me in person. Anyone know of him? Thanks for all the advice I have been receiving. That's the reason I posted on here. I wanted to get some input about breeding. Thanks