It is all about how you train and the ability of the dog, not the sport itself or the trial itself.

I can see where a lot depends on the temperament of the dog. My dog is just shy of a year, and we have been trying to work him in prey, but his defense overrides his prey. He would bite the tug half ass and hold on, but would get loaded up in aggression to the point where he was ignoring the tug and was focused on the helper. I thought he might be bluffing trying to chase the helper away, so I let him go and he took a nice full bite on the arm of the suit and held on. After he learned it was okay to bite, he continued to showed strong intensity and quickly caught on to a leg bite with the leg tug. He is also hitting the sleeve well. All of this behavior came on in a two week period. He is not biting in prey. It seems to me I could loose some of that intensity if I focused too much on sch style protection. I believe he does need to unload some when he's biting and get more confident, but I don't want him to get the idea that it's just a game. What are some specific training approaches that can keep the protection more serious while training for sch? For example, if a dog is biting out of aggression, in the begining, shouldn't the helper do some acting to show the dog he has some power. Otherwise, the young dog might get the sense his displays of aggression aren't working. I don't see that with sch helpers. The dog bites, maybe a little fighting and he wins the sleeve, and maybe even carries it in a circle away from the helper. That approach doesn't seem to build fight in a dog. It seems the dog should hold his ground and the helper should run off.

I have to agree with Angela and Chip. I do agree with you others on certain things too. All that are involved, like myself, put our dogs' training by priority. Mine is p.p.
It's been nice discussing this with you all.
Take care & Good Luck to All, B.Adkins

There are distinct differences in training and trials. I have yet to see a Helper slip a sleeve in a SchH trial. The objections people are describing are training techniques that are also used in PP training.

And don't forget if it has rules and is carried out in a group and on a field, it is a SPORT. PSA, Pro Sport, ASR, Belgian, French, and Mondio Ring, KNPV, Russian Great Ring and any other thing you can come up with are dog sports. When the Police put on compitions with their patrol dogs it is a sport. None of that prevents a dog from doing "real" work. If the dog is going to perform it will perform. It doesn't matter much what the "Training Discipline" is.

Sebastian: Giant CGC, TD, PP
Ora: BRT PP
Missy: Minature Schnauzer CGC, PP

(A lot of us have done a lot of things with our dogs, and may even know a REAL thing or two).

Richard,
I am thinking of examples I have heard and read about such as a schIII dog that wont bite the decoy that doesn't have a sleeve or won't do leg bites. You could argue that the dog just needs additional training or maybe there is something about the dog's temperament that makes him reluctant to bite without equipment. I was asking about ways to build a good foundation in the bitework with a dog that is biting primarily out of aggression, with a goal of a sch title, but not limiting the bitework to the sleeve obsession in the sport.

Chip,

There are a ton of reasons that a dog may not select a different target. Many prefer and stick with a favorite, you can usually train another bite if you deny their favorite but given a choice they go right back. Often SchH dogs are trained to only bite equipment, that is the goal for the dog. That doesn't make SchH bad, the trainer/handler has a different goal. Teaching the dog to work the helper not the equipment comes from working the dog with no equipment and from dumping one piece of equipment only to start with something else. It is a training issue, not a SchH issue.

As a side note I don't believe that there is a rule requirement for the dog to make an arm bite in SchH, it is much prefered because that is the equipment that is used, but not required. I doubt you will be invited back if you have a dog that goes for a leg bite in compition. Also making a leg bite is often not done from strength, but from weakness. It is a result of the dog desiring to stay as far away from the helper as possible. A dog sees the head and mouth as the "buisness end" of an opponent. Making a leg bite keeps tham as far away as possible. Part of the reason the arm bite is selected in SchH and is used as an advanced bite in some other sports where the leg bite is taught first not last.

At one point SchH was not considered an end point for training. It was a step along the way. When people are interested in doing SchH only, there isn't a lot of point to complete the training. That isn't a SchH problem.

Many people fall in with a group that bad mouths SchH and by in to the line. The fact that they and their friends have never done SchH is beside the point. Unfortunately the term PP dog is applied to a dog that has lousy obedience training and does lousy bite work (generally a lack of control). It gives doing that work a bad name. That is what tends to iritate me. Keep in mind I don't do SchH, never have. I have worked with SchH trained dogs doing PP, Security, and SAR work but I have never trained for it. That is a choice. I do understand the value and the limitations of SchH as well as what SchH was origionally for. It is designed as a step along the way, not an end point. It is now often treated as an end point for a dogs training. That isn't a SchH problem, it is a people problem.

To eliminate those targeting problems you can do bitework on both a suit and sleeve from day one. In foundation prey work the dog rarely has any problem whatsoever going for the different pieces of equipment.

As far as the dog working in aggression, that will have a lot to do with the work you and your helper do as the dog matures. If the dog has it in him, you can work in aggression no matter what equipment you use.

For the SchH dog and the PPD you also want to start working protection in different environments after the prey foundation is set. Not just on a nice green field. It won't hurt your SchH work, in fact it will make it better IMO. I have been able to really sharpen up blind work by doing B&Hs in different locations. . .including in my home and with the dog in muzzle AND with the helper doing many different things. You can avoid a lot of unnecessary helper pressure on the dog in the blind by increasing the pressure by using the environment.

(i.e. getting a little more defense and seriousness in the guarding/barking by turning on the dog's nerves using the environment and circumstances rather than the helper having to do things to the dog)


I don't guarantee that you will produce a top scoring SchH dog this way, but you will get a nice protection dog who will title in SchH.


I really like Ed's tape The First Steps of Defense, the things that are covered in that tape can really do a lot for your dog in both SchH and PP. The civil work especially. . .

Great points by Richard and Ed by the way.

I trained both my females in the schutzhund bite routine first before switching them to Personal Protection Training, the control was much better,the bites were full and a lot calmer, they were also much more reliable,they took the bites, with lots and lots of confidence, then some of the other dogs that we had on the test day. We had a test day and the dogs have to reinact a Hijacking, attack on handler etc, it was a really great experience<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michelle,
Check your PM"s please.

Will Rambeau
Moderator