thank you,for your input i have the leerburg dvd on marker training I'm well aware of its benefits, i was hoping that some one could give me some constructive input on the type of training (that i described above), if anyone has any direct experience on this type of training (not just criticism) i would love to hear from them, marker training or basic obedience dose not not create respect in a dog (as Ed has said many times in his dvds) this training supposedly dose

thank you for your input

 Quote: Anne Jones

Holding a dog upside down by each of his feet until he doesn't complain builds trust & confidence? Not to me. Envoiromental exposure & confidence is very easy to achieve with a stable dog with fun motovational methods. My dogs will walk in,on,over,by any & all obsticles, noise, machines, construction equipment etc anything, without having to have been 'trained' by those kinds of methods. Exposing dogs to degrees of stress & their learning by this that they are ok is part of socialization. It doesn't have to be done in the manner in which this trainer does it to achieve results.

I'm sorry, but my dogs, especially my female, would basically 'walk thru fire' for me & I didn't need to train her by these methods to get that. JMO

i didn't say that that was a training technique that is the end result of the training,, lol,, wow so no one has anything constructive to say unless its about marker training lol

wow

give us a link to the training method discribed and we can give you a more informed opinion.

 Quote: vincent mancuso

met with a trainer that dose something a little different than i have experienced, he puts the dog in uncomfortable positions progressively to the point that you can lift the dog upside down or from all 4 feet without the dog complaining at all, building trust and obedience.

thank you for your input

This sounds like forcing the dog to into avoidance like some strange variation of an alpha dog roll. Which is not conducive to trust and respect, in fact it does the opposite.

I don't see anything wrong with progressive difficulty in obstacles, but it's how you train it. Using what is commonly called marker training is a great way to train obstacles, and build trust.

"These obstacles are designed to create confusion, anxiety, escalate stress levels, create resistance and finally refusal"

this sounds like the opposite of how i'd want my dog to feel during training. Challenging is one thing, but i think dogs need to be set up for success to build confidence, and start to add distractions but still set them up for success.

I understand that you don't want people to criticize but these are the facts as we see them. I live in Ontario, and can try to help you find another place to train if it turns out you agree.

Take care

Rob

i really dont want to drag that poor guy into this pit of vipers,, lol

his website doesn't expand on what i first wrote, it seems to be consistent to what Ed shows in his dvd on training a protection puppy, where he takes one of his wife's dogs to new and uncomfortable locations and apparatus to socialize and environmentally proof the dog, stressful on the puppy yes abusive no

thank you

You asked for opinions on the theory. You received opinions.

"Creating confusion, anxiety, and stress" is the opposite of what I want to do with my dog.

What else "constructive" is there to say? I'd avoid a trainer whose theory is what you posted. You asked and we answered.

Unless you're shopping for specific opinions, you received what you requested. (" .... constructive opinion, as i am considering using this technique with my next dog ... "). Advising you to look elsewhere is constructive opinion.

is a protection dog never put under stress in training isn't any progressive training program a response to a progressive stressor

 Quote: vincent mancuso

... i really dont want to drag that poor guy into this pit of vipers ...

I quote you in saying "wow."

Don't ask for opinions if you don't really want them..

"it seems to be consistent to what Ed shows in his dvd on training a protection puppy, where he takes one of his wife's dogs to new and uncomfortable locations and apparatus to socialize and environmentally proof the dog."

Not to me.

Another opinion.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: vincent mancuso

... i really dont want to drag that poor guy into this pit of vipers ...

I quote you in saying "wow."

Don't ask for opinions if you don't really want them..

"it seems to be consistent to what Ed shows in his dvd on training a protection puppy, where he takes one of his wife's dogs to new and uncomfortable locations and apparatus to socialize and environmentally proof the dog."

Not to me.

Another opinion.

just saying you dont agree without any kind of point doesn't really constitute a constructive statement

While I applaud & use marker training, & negative markers. I will add that there are those occasions down the road, well after training, that I do use prong collars & corrections when proofing my dogs. (usually well after 1 year of age) I also use e-collars.(but not escape training) My dogs have e-collars on when off of my property,(they are 2 -3x daily out on local fields training) but there has only been a couple of times that I have used it in 6 years. I have it as a back up, just in case.

Obedience & the way that you LIVE with your dogs is what creates respect from your dog. My dogs are raised in the NILF style. They work for most things that they get. They sit before going in & out the door, they sit & 'watch me' before they get their meals, they sit & wait at the top or bottom of steps until I go up or down, they sit before getting in & out of the truck,they work for treats etc.

There are still many peple that use the yank & crank methold with success, but it is not as nice for the dog & can cause conflict. If there are better methods why not use them. It's like saying, just cause you can get to town ridding a horse, but now there are cars, why not drive the car. The result or end is the same, you get to town, but it is a far more plesant ride.

Take a look at the pack leadersip articles that Ed has.