Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: meredith hamilton

I've been studying ahead, trying to prove to a friend that the vegetarian diet he has his dog on is not in the dog's best interest.

Wow. That's a whole other topic, really, and one that makes me kinda crazy. I know we all know the basic answer(s) to that (as in, "look at your dog's teeth and GI system; is that an animal designed for soybeans?"), but I'll see if I have any really succinct quotes about that or maybe just a brief recap of my own POV (as a vegetarian who would never in a million years make my dogs follow suit).

Well, it's 10:30 and I haven't even started working yet. Later ....

I'm driving THIS particular crazy train, Connie. I am at the point where I just want to hit this guy for being such a moron.

I guess he thinks those sharp canines are for punching holes in coconuts?

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

I guess he thinks those sharp canines are for punching holes in coconuts?

That tops any succinct rejoinder I was gonna come up with.

You know, while I'm not-working-anyway, I'm just going to put out there that if I was unable (principles, cost, whatever) to feed a dog the food that dogs thrive on (meat), I think I would have to not own dogs. I couldn't use dogs in my care to make a statement for my food-production beliefs.

Dogs are omnivores (and scavengers), actually, way over on the carnivore end of the scale (unlike cats, which are obligate carnivores), and can survive on any number of diets. But "survive" does not mean "thrive" or even "live in good health." Dogs are designed to eat a meat diet, from teeth to GI system to the lack of production of enzymes humans produce to process grains. (For example, dogs don't make the salivary amylase that helps us to break down starch as soon as it gets into our mouths. Their pancreas also doesn't naturally produce starch-processing enzymes in the amounts needed to digest a plant-food-heavy diet.)

I could not list all the factors that point to a meat-based diet for dogs. They are overwhelming; there is no real physiological argument against meat for dogs.

So on to unwillingness to support big ag slaughter-animal practices.

This is a personal thing. I buy only humanely-raised and -slaughtered meats that are fed species-appropriate feed. And I am not rich, by any stretch of the imagination. It's actually doable, with some thought and effort. For example, I found out that the butcher at the natural-food store meat counter would save chicken backs from pasture-raised chicken when he cut them into the popular 8-piece cut (two breast halves, two thighs, two wings, two drumsticks), and he sells them to me for under a dollar a pound. Cheap canned salmon from wild salmon is readily available.

I could go on and on, but I guess the point is that for me, the appropriate diet for the dogs in my care comes first. If I have to spend some time and effort to get that appropriate diet without supporting the producers that use farm-animal practices that I hate, so be it. That's my responsibility.

JMO.


eta
Of course, this is about Meredith's friend, who is likely good-intentioned but (IMHO) misguided. It's certainly not about anyone I know of on this board.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/05/2010 01:38 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Boy, that sounds preachy.

i've had this discussion with folks before, who have had dogs"do well" on cheapo foods and live forever...

what is "doing well". sure if ALL you know as normal about dogs is greasy smelly coats, heavy shedding, hot spots, itching, parasites, gas and large mostly loose stools, if that is your entire experience with dogs, then yes, that may seem like "doing well", because its the norm for you. i remember growing up with who knows how many dogs, chained up, they got fed cheap feed store food, and basically ignored other than that. they lived a long time.
but those dogs were gross looking back. my grandparents would have never known, or noticed because the dogs were yard dogs, and yard dogs are "supposed" to smell, feel and look like that. when you aren't walking a dog and picking up the poop, how often to you look at it to see the quality??

even people with house dogs, they expect their dogs to smell doggy and drop a pound of hair when you pet them. i have a friend with 3 labs that eat something like walmart food, and i can't even touch them, its nasty. my hands will smell like lab for a week.

so when i hear "my dog did well on..." i always have to wonder what their idea of doing well actually is.


as far as the chick peas, i think they are gross, lol, and couldn't even stand the smell of them to feed thme to my dogs. BUT, would it be possible, since your dogs love them so much, to use them sparingly as a super high value training reward??

 Quote: connie sutherland

Boy, that sounds preachy.

I'd stand and shout 'Amen!"


Clearly, if somebody is trying to feed thier dog a vegetarian diet, it's all about THEM without any real thought or care about the wellbeing of the dog. They are simply projecting a belief system onto a dog. It's lipstick on a pig.

I read once about "Kosher" dog food and thought to myself, WTF? Observing Kosher dietary laws is a way of ritualizing faith. It's a religious act. Dogs can't read Torah. It's just silly.

I allow for people to choose to eat whatever they want; nothing could be more personal. But dogs don't get to choose. If they could, what dog would stand in a field of corn nibbling away while ignoring the rabbit that runs by? It's simply unnatural.

Many animals were created to eat other animals. That's not gross or violent or sad. It simply is. Instead of "they are eating each other" I prefer to think "they are feeding each other."

And even more ironic when you consider that the Torah says to throw un-Kosher foods to the dogs. Literally.

The people who feed Kosher pet food are getting hung-up on the Talmud debate between not benefiting from un-Kosher foods vs the fact that dogs are permitted to eat un-Kosher foods.

I do, however, observe the mitvah commanding me to feed my animals, before I feed myself.

 Quote: niomi smith

So, I have discovered that my dogs LOVE chickpeas. .... Any reasons you wouldn't feed?

I have been trying to find web quotes to post as substitutes for small-animal nutrition manuals, Whole Dog Journal, and Lonsdale and Billinghurst, but didn't do that great.

Many of the reasons for not feeding a grain-heavy diet to dogs apply to legumes, of course, but I'm trying to be specific.

I did find in a question to Mary Strauss about chickpeas for part of a cancer diet:
http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/151473.html There is no need to add grains or legumes. Legumes are only high in protein when compared to other plant sources, they are not high in protein compared to animal food sources. Dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates or plants of any kind. Grains and legumes provide very little in the way of nutritional value, and in the case of a dog with cancer, they feed the cancer rather than the dog.


Then I looked for Lew Olson, the other of the two top dog-nutrition writers (IMO):

http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/180801.html Can dogs utilize beans and legumes as protein sources like we do? .... No, and these are high sugar carbs, avoid them.

Also:
http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/157248.html My shepherds
are fed a homemade diet based on raw meaty bones. Legumes are not a regular
part of their diet, however I might give each a tablespoon of leftover
legumes from my dinner and not worry about it. (Mary Strauss)

Pitcairn's books do use legumes in some home-cooked recipes. I wouldn't, but he explains that this is "to reduce meat costs if necessary." But I would not want to regularly give high-gas-causing foods to any dog.



Dogs have not evolved to produce high levels of starch-digesting enzymes. In addition, while chickpeas (or garbanzo beans) have lower carb levels than, say, wheat, the starch they contain is much higher in amylose (more resistant to digestion in the intestine). So dogs start out without having evolved to produce much starch-digesting enzymes (which we've talked about a lot with relation to grains), AND legumes contain more enzyme inhibitors (like protease and amylase inhibitors) that further reduce their ability to process the starch.


Phytates in legumes are detrimental to the dog's ability to digest minerals. In particular, they bind with calcium.


In one Mary Strauss article, she describes legumes as having "high levels of starch, poor to reasonable quality protein, and the propensity to generate a lot of gas. .... Legumes don't usually cause a problem if they remain a small part of a dog's diet."


I guess bottom line for me is that feeding legumes regularly necessarily reduces the animal protein (including fish, yogurt, etc.) that's fed. (Obviously, we can't add a significant amount of one form of protein to the diet without reducing another form.)

So for me, I'd have no problem with giving the dog something he loves in the form of single chickpeas as treats, but I don't want them to displace meat proteins and I don't want grains or legumes (any vegetable protein) to be a significant part of the dog's diet, forcing his pancreas to try to produce unnatural levels of enzymes that dogs don't normally make, in the system's attempts to process the protein.

Again, dogs are scavengers and can live on some pretty out-there diets. And I have very little problem with giving my one dog who lusts after pineapple the occasional chunk, and even worse. I think it's probably better, though, not to incorporate on a steady basis stuff that we know they aren't designed to eat regularly, like a lot of grains or beans or sugar or Gummi Bears or, in the case of one of the dogs sitting beside me pointing to the dinner-clock, a pound or two of pineapple .....

Interesting topic, Niomi!