Joshua, you could try free shaping. It encourages the dog's initiative and makes them active vs. reactive. The dog learns that training is fun and making an effort is rewarded.

 Quote: Joshua Mercer

Any extra ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Hi Joshua,

Keep up the great work and wonderful attitude. You have it right for the sake of the dog. Trust and time are your best friends. Consistent positive interactions.

I don’t have a lot of experience with bite work but it sounds like this dog has been through a lot and earned the right to live pain and fear free - continue to show him this is the case with you. As with any rehabilitation process, it has to be lived to become real. One negative episode can set back the entire process.

How is he on the agility table? I would make this the best place in the world to be.

Have a little fun with bully sticks; they have some really long ones. Tie a rag to the end, play with it then let him eat it. You can increase this to a couple a leather straps that make a bit of whipping noise, fun games, then again let him eat it – without the tie-ons of course.

Run the hose on the ground, no sprayer, and do some fun marker training in the vicinity. Once he get used to the running water (this could be a while), maybe hide a scent item (you mentioned he’s good at/likes this game) closer to it, slowly closing the gap. Show him how the water goes into the bowl (from the hose) when he’s thirsty, very slowly and be sure not to splash or spray him. Not sure how you are bathing him? Is this with the hose?

And most important of all, protect him from and around all other people. He’s still hesitant about your assistant. That can be an entire process in itself; she/he may need to take over for a bit, building that trusting bond as well. I wonder if the table trainer wasn’t using an assistant for the dreadful actions you mentioned. Has he ever gone up the leash on your wife again? Perhaps the assistant was a pregnant female? Something about the scent reminded him of those tortuous times. I highly doubt it but there may be something about the assistant piece.

However, I wouldn’t worry about others rewarding him right now. Work on building the solid, trusting bond with you first. Give him at least six months of daily consistent, positive and progressive training. He actually sounds like quite a solid guy for what he’s been through (not weak nerved – bad socialization and horrendous training that created some anxiety issues).

I’ll bet he’ll walk through fire for you when you’re done.

Sounds like a nervy dog to me. You CAN'T change a dogs genetic mind so..........

I refuse to be around nervy dogs anymore, there's simply to many good ones around. You should post the name of the kennel you bought the dog from, they sold you a nervy dog so why not? Maybe you'll help the next unsuspecting person down the line.

I agree, nervy dogs are a handful, and thankfully i have a good nerved Dutchie to offset my fustration, and balance me out. lol. Anyways, He is very good at obediance, and agility jumps, climbs, catwalks, and the seesaw. He recently has been introduced to blind tubes, and after a little encouragement, he has no problems.

I agree that nerves play a great deal with dogs, and the ability for use. However with this dog, and this has been observed by many other great trainers, the dogs nerves where broken by poor training, the nerve issue was non-existant prior to the training (I found his original owner, and viewed the demo video when he was a pup); all agree that normally this dog wouldnt be even attempted as a working dog, however he has great genetics and drive. Using the drive and the genetics we have gotten him this far. It took me a long while of fustration work just to get him to preform under stress in some situations, but a small amount of fustration, and jealousy goes a long way. We have used the fustration (for the toy), and jealousy to make him want to preform better than my dutch shepherd. And so far, it has worked.

About my wife, no he has not came at her in any aggressive manner since that episode. However, against my will, and with hers she limits her activity with the dog. This is probably for the best considering she has became fearful of the dog BUT i will give her credit, she does feed him pieces of puppy crack through the kennel door, and he does approach her more calmly, and curiously now. But she doesnt walk him, I do. My assistant is female, and is also one of the trainers. Sarge is doing better with her because she has a great personality and is able to pump the dog up more so than most guys can.. sorry, women have us beat in this I must say. With assistance from my training partners, and trainers, and the watchful eye of Bob Gailey this dog could possibly be 1 in a million, or (which is fine by me) live a happy life doing work for himself.

In regards to the water hose, he isnt as fearful of it anymore, if its free flowing i.e. not under pressure. But if a sprinkler is on, he is hesitant, but will go in the water after he asses the situation. He does drink from the hose now while I am filling up his water bowl. Regarding the bully stick, thats a great idea, and wouldnt probably wouldnt be a bad transition since I do still use a flirt pole with him. I do incorperate the bite work, but not in a stressful manner. For example, I use a puppy sleeve and just play tug with him, let him win and carry off, and bring back. I play tug with him with a tug toy all throughout the day, and pump him up vocally. He is very eager to please, it just seems that at this point in the game his drive / comfort / genetics are overdriving his nerves, and that is what I think is bringing him forward to a point where he is hesitant, and then goes in, rather than tuck tail and bolt the other direction.


In regards to the person who sold this dog to me, I posted the info in another section of the forum, but might as well post it here to. The Agency name was Working Dogs International, llc out of Cleremont Florida. The trainer / owner is Stacy Johnson.

It sounds like he’s coming along great. I didn’t realize he was actively training. I hope you keep us updated on his progress.

And Mr. Curbow, if I may…I know you are somewhat of an expert with many years of experience in this venue and I certainly am not. But I’m very curious and would like to learn more about how you came to the conclusion that this dog has weak nerves.

My shepherd truly has a genetic defect and his initial upbringing didn’t help matters. When I was WRONGLY advised that he would be a bite work candidate, after some initial work, he was offered two bites. He viciously attacked, very high on the sleeve, towards the neck and face. I didn’t like the look of this and I don’t think the trainer was expecting it – he then ran at my dog and put him in avoidance. This led me to contact Mr. Frawley, who knew right off the bat, by the bite placement, that he was a genetically weak-nerved dog and advised me to stop all bite work and have a “Professional” assess him – not the dumbass I wasted my hard earned money on. I sought out Mr. Ellis, who “teased” him with a whip, once, to the same conclusion. He is not playing - far too serious and dangerous for the sport – unpredictable, weak nerves.

This particular dog has been bite trained. “Lit up like a Christmas Tree at the sight of the bite suit” and has endured what I would consider (perhaps wrong) incredible torture inflicted on his body in the name of the work.

Flanked – the OP is now just able to start bathing him in that area.

Pulled testicles – to cause pain initiating the fight drive (doesn't sound like something any male I know would appreciate)

Electric Cattle Prod – not sure where, but I can only imagine. Some of the older prods I’ve seen have a snapping/clapping sound when the electricity is initiated. Anything remotely close to that sound would set me off had I been subjected to continual burns by one.

High Pressure Hose (I’m assuming like the fireman and jail guards use to control fires and unruly prisoners). A lot of pressure behind that water; must have been fairly painful for a 60-70 lb dog.

Never introduced to people (I’m assuming training/torturing personnel only).

This stuff makes the stuff my dog endured look like a trip to Disneyland.

This dog has no natural environmental triggers - no fear of thunder, loves playing in the rain, is coming around to people as they are being introduced, no dog aggression, is not whining or hectic, making steady progress and appears to be predictable under somewhat stressful circumstances (other than the isolated incident of handler aggression and the fearful reaction to clapping).

I did not see this as a genetic nerve issue and was just wandering if you could share what it was you were looking at. And is this a reasonable expectation of endurance in police or military protection training?

CJ,
Fear is fear. You can blame it on all kinds of things but it's in the dog and it WILL come out, all the rest is BS. It takes time to come out sometimes but you'll know by 6 months old. Nervy dogs are always nervy dogs, confident dogs stay confident. I'd get rid of a nervy dog and get a good confident dog. This is just my take on it.

Confident dogs can be 'broken' too, just like any person in the world can be 'broken'.
Can they be rehabbed and brought back to life? Yes, to a certain extent......and just like people some never can be, depending on what you would expect or require of them.

Joshua,
I think (in my own unexpert opinion) that for what you're looking for the dog can and will do what your asking for.
Given time for some trust and confidence to be built up between you and the dog and the new world he's just learning about, he may very well excel.
Because others think it's a waste of time shouldn't put you off in the least. It sounds like you're doing just fine, the confident dog will come back though you'll have to pay attention to those edges. (Shrug) But almost all dogs have an edge someplace or another.....whether they're confident about it or not.

Keep up the good work Joshua.
And good luck.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

Keep up the good work Joshua.

Randy

Yep, I agree 100 percent. Lucky dog ya' got there.

Randy,
After you own a few or try and "rehab" a few you figure it out, maybe you never owned one, have you?

Nah Al,
I've never owned a dog in my life.