I guess I'm not thinking of it as dominance aggression, so much as a dog who is really insecure about whether or not he will get to eat. That's a survival issue, not a rank issue. Remember that this dog is a rescue, and he could have easily been a stray for some time, having to fend for himself and quite possibly fight for his food....or, he could have been in a household where behavior expectations were not consistently enforced, and when they were enforced, were done so through severe scolding and heavy-handed discipline. It's possible that he was kept in the back yard all the time and never learned appropriate social behavior. I think these things are quite possible, and will affect a dog regardless of breed, whether we're talking about a Golden or a Rott.

I think the most likely scenario is that this dog was previously owned by people who had no idea how to properly train a dog, and that he was given up because of this behavior.....but you are correct, we can't diagnose this via the internet.

I do agree that someone knowledgeable needs to look at this dog in person, once any medical causes have been ruled out.

The dog was cleared medically before they ever got him. He was a stray found wandering around the Cleveland Steel Mills.
We have also had him to a competant trainer who was very helpful and taught us the importance of keeping the dogs off of the furniture. Needless to say, we are going back to her soon, she just hasn't called back yet.
We have been discussing the problem at length all day (which is much better than ignoring it), and we may have figured out the (well one of the) problems.
When the dog growled to avoid getting into the crate his owner backed down, therefore he won, does he now feel he has to challenge our authority constantly?
We initially were worried about the strange canine rage problem as he did initially seem to "check out," but now there is a difference to his attacks. I really think this time it is a dominince issue. Also, we never let him around children unless he is under control on a leash or locked in a bedroom upstairs.
Thank you for all of your insights, please give me more....

Also, he is neutered. Thanks.

J Parker, yes your ideas do make sense. I don't doubt that there is a dominance issue here, he certainly likely learned that aggression is an effective way of controlling the humans. What concerns me is the degree of aggression in response to the human taking something away from the dog. That sounds out of normal range (at least from this distance).
I do think that breed is relevant. If you called me to tell me your 18 mo old male Rott, GSD, etc just growled at you when you tried to take his food dish away, I doubt whether I'd be questioning the soundness of the dog's temperament. But, tell me the same thing about one of the softer breeds and I definitely will be more concerned.
I can give you an example of a dog that I think is just plain nuts, it's not dominance, it's just insanity. Cls brought an 8 mo bitch pup over, she's some kinda Dal/QueenieX (looks like a mini Catahoula). She has bitten their kids' friend and the owner already. Even when I crouched and stayed sideways to her (I never faced her full front the entire time they were here) she hackled, lunged, growled, snarled and tried to bite me as long I was in her self determined *range*. If I moved further away, she layed down, facing away from me and pretended I wasn't there. She responded exactly the same way to one of my helpers. They were here 1.5 hrs and at no time did I see her recover from the initial panic/fear aggression. There was not one second of appropriate behavior.
Yes, the owners did everything wrong as well, they let her sleep in their bed, didn't make her stay in her crate if she fussed, etc. But they did not cause this degree of insanity. All we could do w/her would be lots of obed w/her muzzled. And there is no way I could promise them that after all that, she would be trustworthy w/kids or under any type of stress.

While I have spoken quite a bit about my roomates dog, I have said nothing about mine, he is definately not problem free. Because he was a rescue and I was actually lucky enough to learn his background (the dog warden had been watching this owner for a while and had a folder)he was a fear biter. I only know this because he bit the dog warden. However, he has not bit anyone since then. He is very timid and so on and so forth.
I know this is the aggressive dog section and I visited the fear biter and shy dog section, however people were throwing personal insults at each other and nothing constructive was being accompolished. If you have any advice I would appreciate it, if not, I understand. You have all been very helpful and I would like to thank you for your help.

Heathea,
My .02 about fear biters: a lot depends on how stable the dog's core temperament is. A dog who was raised in a lousy environment will be able to turn it around if the genetic temperament is stable and sound. If the dog had poor early handling (and by *early* I mean 3-6 wks which is a *crucial* time for interacting w/humans, and every bit as important as what the new owners do from 8 wks on), *and* inherited bad nerves, the deck is stacked.
But, again we can't evaluate via keyboard, tho maybe the day will come soon when folks can post videos of problem dogs in action and get feedback <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
About the only thing that helps w/fear biters is good, solid obed training. It makes the dog trust you more as a good strong leader and can give you control, ideally your control will override the panic. The one caveat, tho is that the weak nerved dog can be trained to modify his behavior, to an extent, but will never be trustworthy under stress. This is also why some weak dogs make it thru a Sch I.
Read *Elements of Temperament* on my web site and see if that helps.

Hi Joy,
I do think that breed is relevant to a certain extent, but when talking about rescues, it can be less of a factor than the dog's background. In this instance, the dog was a stray....I'm not surprised at all by that information. Yes, the aggression does seem to be out of proportion to the real threat, but also remember that it's not a matter of what the real threat is, it's a matter of the dog's perception of what constitutes a threat, which can be based upong past experience, not neccessarily a mental deficiency or unstable temperament. Though it is just as possible that this dog was left in a car during hot weather and suffered brain damage, you just never ever really know for sure.....

I'm reminded of the thread "What did we do wrong", and the example that Ellen gave of how her friend Kevin worked with an aggressive dog, and I'm thinking that this would be the best approach to this particular dog.

Ruby, to answer the question about whether or not backing down when the dog growls reinforces the dog's idea that he can get what he wants this way? There is no doubt about that. Yes, absolutely it does. BUT, by confronting the dog directly in an attempt to not allow him to bully you, he may escalate his aggression, and it could get even uglier. This is why the non-confrontational approach is best in so many cases like this.

But, Joy makes a very, very valid point, that this dog can most likely NEVER be trusted with children, other dogs, or stressful situations, and if your friends do work out this issue with the dog, they will ALWAYS have to be very very careful about who, where, and what they expose the dog to. This is not going to ever be the happy-go-lucky, loves-everybody dog that we all think of from our childhoods. The question is whether or not that is a responsibility that they want for the next 10-15 years.

As for your dog, I have a timid dog as well, but he has never bitten anyone. Actually, he's only shy with strangers, and I've made a lot of progress with him. I adopted him from a private party a year ago. I can see by the way he acts when I reach for his collar that he was probably trained fairly heavy handedly, and he has a soft temperament, so I'm not surprised that he acts the way he does. Basically, I'd say that you can probably do like Joy says, and just provide strong leadership for him; this isn't the same as dominating him, it's more like, providing security by setting a good example, so that he knows that you can be trusted to never put him in a situation where he will be harmed, and so that he looks to you for guidance as to how to behave in any given situation. Does this make sense? You yourself must be confident so that the dog can trust in your strength.....

OK, I'm just rambling now, so I'll go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I am guilty of mixing up my threads. I had in my mind the *other* agg pet dog and was confusing him w/the Springer to an extent. I apologize for being so befuddled and hope I did not add more confusion.
That being said, I will stand behind my comments about the dog never being truly trustworthy. Temperament faults have a way of resurfacing under stress, no matter how excellent the training has been.
And, I stand behind my opinion that not all dogs can be saved. It's a sad fact, but there are too many folks cranking out pups w/no clue what they are doing and the net result is an enormous % of pet dogs w/unstable temperaments, not suited for life as a pet/companion.
Certainly, the dog I referenced above is s perfect example.

Ahhh, JParker here is where you and I diverge. I absolutely agree that w/thin nerved dogs, it is the dog's *perception* of a threat that is relevant. But, here is why genetics is the real culprit, much more so than handling. Let's use the dog I eval'd the other day as an example. I'm not an especially threatening person, according to the dozens of dogs I work with each wk. I met her turned sideways to her, and both her owners were right there w/her. Yet, she reacted as if I'd attacked her. Her *perception* of me was that I was a threat to her very existence.
IOW, the dog was not in touch with reality.

That is one definition of insanity. Her realilty contact is very poor. This doesn't happen w/sound, stable dogs who merely didn't get enough early socialization. Those dogs rebound nicely. It's in the genes. Super hi defense drive, super low threshold, very bad combo, esp w/kids.
I think the main point I'm trying to make is that lack of proper early handling/socialization does cause problems, but not to this extent. A dog w/genetically sound temperament will turn it around, and fairly quickly, once in a good environment.

I agree with you basically. I can't deny fact. I'm just not completely convinced that this Springer's food guarding isn't related to being a stray, combined with poor handling sometime in the past....but I do agree that not every dog can be saved. If this dog's food guarding behavior cannot be stopped, then I will agree with you completely, with no reservations! Again, that this dog needs to be looked at in person, which it sounds like these people are doing.

How about an update on this dog in six months, heathea? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />