Marks,

The crate shouldn't be used as a punishment, it is more like a time out. That is why you don't make a big deal about putting them in there. It has to be a very calm matter of fact placement for long enough for the dog to calm down and understand that you can and will control what they do and when they can do it.

Richard,

I know what you mean, I just prefer not to use the crate for that. I prefer making putting them in a down for the same purpose - not in a punitive way of course. I've found that a few minutes is enough time.

I do know people who use the method you describe and it works for them.

Chris,

Have you taught him a "Place" command? That comes in real handy for when you have guests around and would like to have your dog with you but not under everybody's feet.

In layman's terms, and without the benefit of seeing the dog, it sounds like he's a little spoiled and simply craving the attention of strangers. Chris, do you think I'm right or is it something more or different than that?

Regardless, I would handle it this way. As soon as the people came in and began to pet the dog I would, assuming the dog was not yet nipping, tell the dog "Good greet (Name)", "Good greet ...". But the moment he started nipping I would gently tell him by name to knock if off. If your guest can be prepared to help you, the guest could then again pet your dog and you would praise the heck out of your dog for acting appropriately but firmly correct when the nipping begins. And then I would make sure it ended on a good note and then, in a very positive way I would "place" my dog and then visit with my guest.

For what it's worth, other than immediate family and a couple of very close friends, I don't allow anyone to pet my dog in my home. He wants to be petted by them but I don't want him to be everybody's chum. In fact I need to have a decoy come over and teach him that not everybody is a good guy. I don't want my dog to be hostile to visitors, just aloof.

Anyway, that's just me I guess. Good luck. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Guys:

I realize that many of you do not know Kevin and to you he is just another member of the board. He is one of the top PSD trainers in the world. PERIOD. Not to understand his responses is very common. I have to reread his posts 3 times before I even have a clue what he is talking about. What is common sense to him is rocket science to me. But please don't openly put down his responses. Save that for my posts. I for one am privileged to converse with a person of his knowledge. And would hate to scare him away.

Right you are, Vince... I know for a fact that I did one of these <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> when Kevin did not share my deep-seated belief that the herding breeds possess a drive to herd. But I am not about to get into an argument with someone who has accomplished what Kevin Sheldahl has in the dog world. That would be just a little presumptious of me.

Pete Felknor

Paul said somethng earlier in this thread that I would strongly disagree with especially with a dog to be protection trained.

"For what it's worth, other than immediate family and a couple of very close friends, I don't allow anyone to pet my dog in my home. He wants to be petted by them but I don't want him to be everybody's chum. In fact I need to have a decoy come over and teach him that not everybody is a good guy. I don't want my dog to be hostile to visitors, just aloof."

My objection to this is comes from several points.

First, a dog that is aloof is going to be suspicious. This is a bad thing with a bite trained dog. Increased suspicion will increase the likelyhood of an unintended bite. I can't tell you how many times people will come up and pet my Giant or allow their children to pet the dog before I can say anything about it. If he wasn't so stable and friendly many of them would have been nailed.

Second, the dog needs to learn that it is behavior not people that triggers action. Dogs are poor generalists. They react based on what they are taught and frequently when they free lance you get an unintended consequence. If some people are ok, and some are not, and some get bit the dog will have to make a decision based on a person by person basis. If the dog is taught that everbody is basicly ok, unless the DO something suspicious/agressive they will be more relaxed and less likely to bite when not intended. If the dog makes a descision I want the dog to decide based on the behavior not trying to figure out which category the person fits in.

Dogs need to be trained to react at the house and an agitation session at the house is a good idea, over done the dog will get the idea that everybody that shows up is a target. Dogs can and will react quicker to a beharioral change than most people. They will often tip that something is wrong before you would notice anything. That is a big part of the advantage of having a dog.

The better socialized and stable the dog the less likely there will be an unintended bite. If the dog has been taught, intentionally or not, that people are suspicious and untrustworthy the more likely the dog will react negatively in a begnin or even friendly situation.

Richard,
I agree w/you. I've gotten 3 calls just in the last day or so from GSD owners who are adamant about not letting their dogs socialize, either they have hopelessly outdated info or someone locally is putting this into their heads. Makes me wonder who the heck sold them these dogs and didn't make it clear to them how important it is to socialze the dogs.
A protection dog needs to be confident around humans. And the dog needs to be able to cue on behaviors, as Richard said.

Actually, *aloof* is perfectly acceptable for a GSD. But, it comes w/maturity. A pup who hesitates around new ppl worries me. *Aloof* in the true sense for a GSD means the dog knows he's not a Golden Retriever and doesn't fawn all over strangers.
In the article on my site, *Elements of Temperament: Drives, Nerves, Thresholds* there is a description of a rescued K9, Jet who had this type of *aloofness* going on.
But, whether the pup becomes aloof as an adult is a function of his genes. Failure to socialize him will more likely result in an unpredictable dog you can't rely on.

I have found this to be a point of disagreement for many. Letting strangers pet your dog or not, both will work for a PPD, but how the dog turns out is handler dependent.

I do the same as Paul. I have never let any of my dogs be pet by anyone other than immediate family in my home.

This does not apply to children. Children are ALWAYS allowed to pet my dogs and I encourage it so they know children are not a threat. They're great with kids - thats a must. They're aloof of adult strangers and thats how I want it to be. I don't let strangers pet them as pups either, but they are heavily socialized around people (I don't equate socializing with petting). If I let everyone pet my dogs they wouldn't be as alert.

However, if you choose not to allow anyone to pet your dog and also decide not to socialize it so its confident around people then you'll likely end up with a dangerous dog.

My challenge at the moment is that my dog is happy to see anybody who comes to the door. It could be a door-to-door salesman, the neighbor, a crackhead or my mother, it doesn't matter. He's there with his tail wagging and is happy to see whoever it is. He's a very friendly dog. And I love that quality about him.

However, I don't want my dog to believe that everybody that comes over is as nice as my immediate family and close friends. Everyone outside of that circle are either acquaintences or strangers and there is nothing to be gained by my dog having any relationship with them, no matter how brief it might be. His socialization is more than fine and his on-going socialization does not include their participation. Why should it? If I let these type of people (strangers and acquaintences) pet my dog, what type of message would I be sending my dog? I would be telling him that these people are ok and that everyone who comes into our home is ok. And some of these people might come to believe that my dog would not hurt them were they to try and break in later, or worse. I don't want them to leave my home with that belief as deterrence would have been diminished. And first and foremost a PPD is a visible deterrent.

When my dog is "placed" within sight but out of the way of a visitor, no relationship is occuring between them and so a degree of aloofness has been arranged. Does this mean that my dog is more likely to attack an innocent? I say no way. A well trained dog does not make that mistake. And there is no way my dog is going to attack someone sitting on my couch talking to me or walking over to admire a piece of art in my home. I know because we've trained for this and other situations many times. We've not taken to chance that he might mis-interpret a situation and attack an innocent. Of course anything is possible, but he is as likely to do that as are you or I, maybe less than me as my dog doesn't drink. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Just kidding.

Don't all of us have dogs that in many respects are very well trained but in another respect maybe are not? My wife and I used to laugh that our dogs would heel off leash and no matter what would happen, the dogs stayed with us. But then when it was time to get in the car, it was a free for all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> But whose fault was that? It was mine because I had overlooked it. We thought it was kind of silly that two well trained dogs in most respects were completely out of control when getting into the car. Well, I assure you that is no longer the case. But I'm sure that everyone's well trained dog is not necessarily well trained in all regards. Hopefully of course they are with the things that are really important. But most of the time it's probably not a big deal. Well, the thing about the people at the door is something I've got to tweak, with the help of some of my PPD owning friends.

In the end it's the responsibility of the dog's owner to know his dog better than he knows himself and to make absolutely sure he is in control of his dog and the situations in which he places his dog. If he can't do that then he shouldn't have a PPD. And for sure there are plenty of people who fit that description, just as there are people who have no business ownning a handgun.

I didn't intend for this post to be so long but I just wanted to share with you in detail my feelings on this subject. I appreciate the give and take and look forward to reading your insights. Have a great day! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />