The dog in question would seem to think that it is 'alpha' in this household. (at the very least the 'mom' is lower in the pack order).

One does not have to 'kick the tar' out of a dog to let them know thier place in a pack. Many dogs will take the alpha position (even though they may not want to be in it) when no one else takes the role. Whether the dog is 1/2 american and 1/2 german likely has nothing to do with its behaviour. These issues can happen with any dog.

Training dogs is not about physical force. It is about a mental connection with your dog. There are some very simple things one can do to establish the alpha role in a household and I would suggest that your parents and you do some reading or go to someone with more experience in these issues.

EM Shepherds,

This is probably a rank issue. It just isn't directed at the person that is alpha. It is more of an issue establishing of the Beta position. With some dominant/rank dogs they understand that they can't elevate to Alpha based on the training they have had, but there tends to be less attention placed on maintaining position with other family members for what the dog sees as the number 2 position.

The way I would handle this is to have mom do obedience with the dog. The obedience will do to things, first it will establish a cooperative bond and second it will provide a method other than physical dominance to establish control over the dog. It will probably be better done with very positive methods. This type of situation is one reason why I don't advocate heavy handed obedience with a dog. It teaches them that the way to obtain control is through physical dominance. With dominant/rank dogs this can an even bigger problem as they tend to be patient and wait for their opportunity to move up in rank. With proper obedience you can break thier concentration and establish control with the obedience and redirect the behavior before it gets out of hand. With this type of dog it is very important to be able to read the dog to head off this behavior prior to the situation getting out of control.

I would also have her do the feeding. Have her take the food to him, if he growls don't leave it. I wouldn't attempt to take it away from him at this point. Just put it down with him in a confined situation and just walk away from him and ignore any of the growling behavior. If he growls, leave him confined and just walk away from him without leaving the food. After 1/2 to 1 hour return and try again. Try no more than 2 times for any meal. If necessary let him miss a meal or two. This should get the point accross that mom controls the food and if he is aggressive with her he doesn't eat. Another thing that may help is to treat him any time she sees him and he doesn't growl. Once he stops growling for close proximity move to rewarding for allowing petting. If he does growl just ignore him, but DO NOT WALK AWAY. It is important that this dog understand that growling will not force her to go away from him. Make him move away (this leaving is a subtle form of domination by mom). If this does not happen it will escalate if he doesn't get his way. The only thing I would correct is a physical escalation on the part of the dog.

As for the interactions with the other dogs, I have mixed large and small breeds for a long time. Like most things this is easier to prevent than to fix. The thing about doing this is that the large dog needs to understand that they are NEVER allowed to touch the little dogs for any reason. It starts as soon as they come home. Teach them a gentle command and make sure at no time do they start to be rough with the little dogs. Keep an eye on the lttle dogs, especially at first, to make sure you correct them for improper behavior and do not allow the larger dog to "assist". Particularly with this dog never leave him unsupervised with the little dogs. After what has happened I don't think that he can ever be really trusted with them unsupervised. Reading him will be important to prevent aggressive behavior before it gets really started.

This type of mistake is why I never recomend keeping dogs that are incompatible. There is always a mistake at some point with bad consequences for somebody.

I can't honestly say that this dog can be fixed. Richard is on the right track, but basically what has happened is that by kicking the tar out of the dog when challenged, your dad has reinforced to the dog that the way to establish rank is through physical aggression. Your mom might be able to establish a leadership role with this dog by doing the things that Richard suggests, however, if your dad continues to maintain his "Alpha" status through physical dominance, that may counteract anything your mom tries to teach the dog. It's hard to say what the outcome will be, but I do think that Richard's advice is your best bet.

I agree with Richard about what methods can be utilized. I still think that this is fear based though. Lets not forget that it was a woman who nearly choked the dog to death. It seems that the dog displays this behavior around women. The dog puts on a show whenever the mother or Belynda come around. sounds like the dog is just shit scared. That being said though, I also see where Richard is coming from(Rank). The dog dosen't have a problem with the father because he has accepted him as the Alpha, and it is fighting for position with the mother. It is hard to say without seeing it first hand. So basically I haven't said a damn thing!LOL Gosh darn Chuck......go out on a limb on this already!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

P.S. I think I need a vacation! I'm talking to myself again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In reality, "Why" doesn't really matter. The issue is "What". Figuring out why the dog does this is kind of an exercise in futility. You can never really know, and knowing doesn't really help with dealing with the situation. The thing that needs to be paid attention to is what the dog does. There are dogs that just don't get along as well with one sex or the other, and most will develop a prefrence based on who did the foundation training when they were young.

You're right, Richard, the point is to deal with the behavior. BUT, sometimes understanding the root causes CAN be valuable in ascertaining what changes may need to be made in the relationship that these people have with the dog. Since the father will not take dog training advice, and disciplines the dog very harshly, I don't see much hope.

One thing that may help understand the behavior, for those of us that still want to know if it's fear or rank, is to describe the dog's body language when he growls. Is he:

a) Head and tail up, stiff legs, hackles raised?

OR

b) Head and tail down, ears back, hackles up?

A is typical of a protective posture, more associated with dominance perhaps, while B is typical of fear. Does it fit either of these categories?

I hear ya Richard, however I think "why" is a huge consideration. The methods of dealing with a fear-based agression can sometimes greatly differ from the methods used to combat dominance based aggression. It is hard to tell based soley on the original post what is going on here. Your advice was excellent, and that's how I would deal with the dog as well(If I kept him). My point is that I don't mean to dwell on "why", however I completely agree with JParker in that it is important to get to the root of the problem. I also echo her opinion on the style of "alpha" leadership used by the father. It is counter-productive.

Chuck,

What would you change in the advice if it was fear or dominance based, and which? It is easy to get hung up on the why, but from a behaviorial stand point it doesn't matter. The thing that needs to be dealt with is the behavior. "Why" drives behavior, but you can't change it. The only thing you can do is work on modifying the behavior. If the "why" is significant then the behavior will be different and that changes the approach. The other thing is that the approach needs to be monitored and evaluated for effectiveness. If it isn't effective then you need to change the approach.

One of the problems in guessing as to "Why" is that you can never really know. It can form a trap for the trainer. "I think this is dominance based, and I have solved dominance based problems by doing X. It should work in this case." Once that mind set comes up you can lock yourself in ineffective training based on a false assumption about the "Why". All training is a modification of behavior. Motivation for the behavior doesn't really matter as far as the training goes. It may make a difference in the level of performance, it may provide some insight as to a begining point, but for training the behavior it really isn't a concern.

Richard,


You raise a good question and I guess my answer would depend on me seeing the dog first hand. Some fear-based aggression I would deal with in a strong manner, in other words make the dog fear(I hate that word...a better word is "respect") the correction more than the boogie man in his head. In some cases though, this is not a good idea(can make matters worse) and a more positive method is called for. Likewise with dominance, methods can vary depending upon the level of dominance displayed by the dog. reading the dogs behavior by seeing him in action would be the only way for sure that I could say exactly what I would do. I know I'm wandering around a bit in circles here but really what I am trying to say is that sometimes its really hard to know without actually seeing the dog and witnessing the situation first hand. Sometimes it takes a mistake or two along the way to open up ones eyes as well.

I do love your pro-active mentality, don't get me wrong.

One thing you said was that you can't change "why". Isn't that what training(as in modifying behavior) is though? If we can find out why the dog is being aggressive and change practices that have been used, isn't that what we strive for? "Why" dosen't matter if it's a genetic issue, but in an environmental issue I believe it is at the core. In this case, if we think that it's fear-based, based on the way the dog has had his ass kicked or was choked by someone, then this is an environmental situation that can be changed by creating a more sound, positive environment for the dog. "Why" is the reason. Along with training the dog to behave a certain way, something can be done to change the "reason" the dog is behaving a certain way.

I'm certainly not on the same intellectual level as you Rich, your no easy debate that's for sure! Summing up my point....If we are talking genetics..."why" is pointless. Environmental......very important.

Chuck,

Again you make my point. If it is fear based the behavior will be some what different and based on a retreat first and then attack (in most cases). That is different than the dog that stands it's ground and then attacks. Yes they have to be handled differently. But it is the behavior we want to change. Since you can't read the dogs mind and know what is driving the behavior, the only thing we can concretly see is the behavior.Since we can see it, we can modify it. Part of training to modify the behavior is manipulating the enviornment. Again, we don't care what about something in the enviornment sets the dog off, we just care that it does. Then we can work on finding a way to manipulate the enviornment and establish effective consequences for the behavior. Even if the dog is scared to death, but the behavior stops. We don't care. Now often the change in behavior creates a change in the motivation for the behavior. It doesn't matter as long as the behavior is acceptable.