wow, thanks all for the sober wise advice. i never get offended when people talk straight and makes sense. i will consider further my situation. the breeder doesn't have a problem if i back out minus the deposit i would guess. i asked him why he uses dutchies and not mals or GSD like everyone else, he used to only use the GSD. the reponse was that the modern GSD he mainly gets to see lack stamina to do the hours and he has to invest so much time looking at prospective dogs to find one suitable that it became not worth it, he did mention this was not the case years ago as it was much easier to find a good GSD - whats up with that- i thought more generations of dog means better dogs each generation?

As for the mals he finds them too handler sensitive and he doesn't have the training skills to match this style of dog. he did say for top trainers the mal is an excellent dog. these guys aren't 'trainers' as such. they know what they need to to get the dog to do its job effectively which in his scenario is a fairly limited skills set for the dog to achieve, the dutchie he finds is somewhere between the two, in temepreament, drive and hardness with a bit more in the hardness department.

i am not ready to back out of the deal yet, i have a few things in my favour, space, more time than most workaday people and few other commitments eg family to worry about and spend time on. i also have access to cattle to herd which at the end of the day will gas any dog out. works for my my hunting she is not people aggressive but is an athlete with high stamina and almost insatiable work drive. herding is reaaly fun as well.

the best thing about this board is people have use their names and have their identity known, brilliant bit of admin control. there are so many internet tough guys talking trash through the wire when in real life they are nothing.

Will is the guy i figured was someone i wanted to get to know.

thanks to all the replies, i appreciatte it your all now fam.

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

whats up with that- i thought more generations of dog means better dogs each generation?

Only if the breeding stays the same or improves.

thanks Anne can't say exactly what i would do untill in such a situation, the obvious response is that i would have enough control, training skills and developed enough of a relationship with he dog that in theory it would totally minimise the possibilty of that situation ever occurring.

that is the theory at least, but we all know about the mismatches between great theory and actual practice. as a last resort i figure if the dog is at least back-tied if i am training on my own then i would have an escape path though possibly taking a bite to go with it.

good to have a plan but am not going to anticipate that scenario to ever happen. it is a ways off before the dog will be doing that level of bite work.

Peter, based on some of the things that you state in your last 2 posts.....I think that you might want to re-think about the dog you are getting & the 'help' that these guys that are breeding it have to offer you.

Good luck. I wish you the best. JMO of course.

I would run not walk from these guys.
There isn't a problem at all with finding solid GDS with German WORKING lines.
The verry fact that they said what they said is bull crap.
They are not pros, and buying a Dtchie form anyone other than a pro is a really bad idea.
Look elsewhere.

Having the cattle herd is a huge huge bonus.

But it won't help if you get a piece of crap nerve bag dog that some half cocked hobby trainer bred.
That is a fact.
Where are the titles?
Where is the industry STANDARD training and dogs.....man...not a good idea at all.

I think with the right dog you could make this work...with a quality Dutchie...possible..not probable...I'll chat and devil's advocate on that all day..It would be fun, I like you and I like debate....but from these guys..(they are might be nice...but they aren't pros)and the stuff they said and the dog's "quality" you mentioned.....and y9our inexperience.....its just not a good deal.

I wouldn't touch a Dutchie.....I'm not that good.
Willie

hope i didn't offend anyone's breed, it was just one person's honest comment to a question i asked them. your right they aren't pro trainers.

hope i didn't trigger some emotional response thing about interbreed rivalry, unintended if i did. every comment helps me learn more, and am still getting used to this whole intenet chat thingy concept.

if i get eaten by my dog in 2 years time i will definately write everyone personally saying "i shoulda listened to ya's way back then..if only", and end up on Ed's page with all the owner gets bitten by dog stories/pics.

i know this is no joke or a game, its a serious hazardous business with these dogs and appreciatte you all trying to set an inexperienced trainer on the right path. hopefully i will make the right decisions but in the end it will be my decision and i will wear the consequences.

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

it will be my decision and i will wear the consequences.

A lot of 'I's in that paragraph. You've seemed to have forgotton someone. The dog will wear the consequences of your actions as well.

Mr. Cavallaro,

I'm not weighing in on breed.

Unless I misread your posts, you own up to being a bit of a novice with the breeds of dog(s) mentioned. It seems to me you are moving pretty fast from driving a Volkswagen to Maserati - perhaps an unfair, over-the-top comparison of goals.

Mostly, though, I want to respond to your quote: " hopefully i will make the right decisions but in the end it will be my decision and i will wear the consequences "

Unfortunately, the dog will wear the consequences of your decisions, also. As one who spends some time with foster dogs, the issue for me is: what's in it for the dog.

The gulf between working with hunting dogs and doing PPD with suited breeds is wide and deep.

I know some thing about having time to explore interests and getting focused on stuff. But every now and then a serious bit of introspection needs to accompany our decisions. And there ain't nut'n wrong with reconsidering goals.

You certainly didn't offend anyone here, that I could see. But I think we all recognize some drawbacks in your goals. I applaud your willingness to assign 'inexperienced' to your training level when it comes to your goals.

But unless you have some real need to pursue the course you are plotting, perhaps you should reassess your goals. Get the dog but consider its future role.

If you end up with some meat missing, I hope for the future of the dog... And no one here - most of us have had a bit of meat rearranged at one time or another - wishes you a bad outcome.

I didnt read much on the thread Peter, so this may have been said. OBEDIENCE. Don't get too excited about all the protection, bad ass dog, etc..... You need to focus on OBEDIENCE. Getting yourself bitten is bad enough, but since you don't live on an isolated island all by yourself don't lose sight of what your responsibilities are.

Hon....this statement concerns me.......

 Quote:

that is the theory at least, but we all know about the mismatches between great theory and actual practice. as a last resort i figure if the dog is at least back-tied if i am training on my own then i would have an escape path though possibly taking a bite to go with it.

You need to ...wow....nevermind.

 Quote:

hope i didn't offend anyone's breed, it was just one person's honest comment to a question i asked them. your right they aren't pro trainers.

hope i didn't trigger some emotional response thing about interbreed rivalry, unintended if i did.

Huh? no one is attacking any breeds...no rivalry. Dutchies rock...in the same way Desert Eagles rock...just not a gun for a beginning shooter....
Jus sayin'

I'm out.
Hope you stick around and learn some stuff.
Good luck!