Quote: Dave Ferguson

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

True PPDs that are social, are rare.

Almost as rare as to be non-existent for practical purposes.

There's absolutely no indication that this dog has the makings for a PPD. At all.

Yeah, I guess everyone has their own personal experiences.

I have seen a very large number of PPDs that are very social dogs in families with old people, or young. That you would not even think had protection work done on them at all. That was otherwise treated like a normal dog. That I know for a fact would and has taken live bites in home protection, or on duty.
But, this is where I have spent most of my time in the bite world with dogs.

Dave, your experience is the complete opposite of what I've seen after training *many* serious PPDs for sale in several contries.

 Quote: will rambeau

 Quote: dave ferguson

 Quote: aaron myracle

True PPDs that are social, are rare.

Almost as rare as to be non-existent for practical purposes.

There's absolutely no indication that this dog has the makings for a PPD. At all.

Yeah, I guess everyone has their own personal experiences.

I have seen a very large number of PPDs that are very social dogs in families with old people, or young. That you would not even think had protection work done on them at all. That was otherwise treated like a normal dog. That I know for a fact would and has taken live bites in home protection, or on duty.
But, this is where I have spent most of my time in the bite world with dogs.

Dave, your experience is the complete opposite of what I've seen after training *many* serious PPDs for sale in several contries.

One fast off topic question. I see your info by your name says you are located in Idaho. Did you used to train/live in the south? Like Louisiana?

You know, I really dont know. When I trained with Mel@Mr.K9 in Chicago we trained PPD. Most peoples dogs were very sweet dogs. There were a few that were nasty. But, based on what I saw, I always had my doubts if they were nasty, or the owners wanted to make them seem that way. Accept this one dog, that I know was as unstable as they come. LOL
We worked mostly with PitBulls and had a few other types.

Maybe most of these dogs were just "show" protection dogs and would not take a live bite/street bite.

We had a female Student that used to come in from Rockford IL once to twice a week. I remember she had 2 Rotties a Mal and a Ridgeback. This was back in like 2002.
She was a single mom and had a 14 year old daughter. One night she was sleeping while her daughter and her daughter's friend were having a sleep over in the house and a guy broke in the house with a knife.
The dogs messed this guy up pretty bad. One dog was hurt in the process I believe.
The Ridgeback bit the guys nose off his face.

Well, long story short. A few of these dogs were put to sleep after the guy that broke in sued. It kind of got me out of PPDs for a long time. I was really let down by that.

But, maybe looking back, these were more show bite dogs then PPD.

Dave,

Is this the correct link that you used to train with? I

http://www.mrk9.com/previous_site/training.htm

 Quote: Lindsay Janes

Dave,

Is this the correct link that you used to train with? I

http://www.mrk9.com/previous_site/training.htm

Yeah that is Mel. I have never seen that site before though. This is the site I have seen.
http://mrk9.net/

Same guy and school. Just different sites.

 Quote: dave ferguson

 Quote: will rambeau

 Quote: dave ferguson

 Quote: aaron myracle

True PPDs that are social, are rare.

Almost as rare as to be non-existent for practical purposes.

There's absolutely no indication that this dog has the makings for a PPD. At all.

Yeah, I guess everyone has their own personal experiences.

I have seen a very large number of PPDs that are very social dogs in families with old people, or young. That you would not even think had protection work done on them at all. That was otherwise treated like a normal dog. That I know for a fact would and has taken live bites in home protection, or on duty.
But, this is where I have spent most of my time in the bite world with dogs.

Dave, your experience is the complete opposite of what I've seen after training *many* serious PPDs for sale in several contries.

One fast off topic question. I see your info by your name says you are located in Idaho. Did you used to train/live in the south? Like Louisiana?

You know, I really dont know. When I trained with Mel@Mr.K9 in Chicago we trained PPD. Most peoples dogs were very sweet dogs. There were a few that were nasty. But, based on what I saw, I always had my doubts if they were nasty, or the owners wanted to make them seem that way. Accept this one dog, that I know was as unstable as they come. LOL
We worked mostly with PitBulls and had a few other types.

Maybe most of these dogs were just "show" protection dogs and would not take a live bite/street bite.

We had a female Student that used to come in from Rockford IL once to twice a week. I remember she had 2 Rotties a Mal and a Ridgeback. This was back in like 2002.
She was a single mom and had a 14 year old daughter. One night she was sleeping while her daughter and her daughter's friend were having a sleep over in the house and a guy broke in the house with a knife.
The dogs messed this guy up pretty bad. One dog was hurt in the process I believe.
The Ridgeback bit the guys nose off his face.

Well, long story short. A few of these dogs were put to sleep after the guy that broke in sued. It kind of got me out of PPDs for a long time. I was really let down by that.

But, maybe looking back, these were more show bite dogs then PPD.

Dave,
Yes, I was located down south in the Georgia and Florida area for 15 years, we moved to Idaho just a few years ago ( not a hot-bed of dog training here, to be sure! ).

If the trainer that you trained with didn't have an accurate test to see if the dogs wouldn't take a live bite, he would fall into the category of "hobby" trainers in the PPD world.

And regarding the bite episode that you mention where the person was sued, resulting in their dog being euth'd, I can't think of a single event where a perp was bitten while committing a serious crime and was able to push a lawsuit forward - and I've been writing a book about real-world protection events for several years, and I've interviewed and researched several hundred episodes.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to a newspaper article or TV coverage of that event, would you? I'd love to research that further since the outcome was so different from the majority of events that I've looked at.

Just my personal experience...My newest 2yo GSD has had 2 live bites (one really, the first one was during a "test" with an incompetent trainer) and he just received his CGC with plenty of complements throughout the testing. He also frequents the local retirement home to visit the elderly...they all get a kick outta him, but none of them know his "other side"...muhahahah. Just kidding...but not really.

Brian,
I think rather than using the term "real bites", a more accurate concept for PPD training is will the dog stand its ground and fight against a determined attacker ( not someone dressed in a bite suit or a sleeve where the dog knows it's not for real )- a dog that can do this is far more rare than people think.

I have seen more dogs than you could believe retreat in the face of a determined attacker that knew what he was doing, and this includes countless "trained" PPDs that owners had spent ( actually, a more accurate term here would be "wasted" ) large amounts of their hard-earned cash on.

 Quote: dave ferguson

I can make/train any dog to bite someone. But at what sacrifice to the dogs mental health is the question.

I want to say that Dave's statement there is good enough to be a "sticky" - I wish that everyone involved in PPDs would take that to heart!

Will,
Do you get as upset and frustrated as I do when you have this conversation with people?

 Quote:

I have seen more dogs than you could believe retreat in the face of a determined attacker that knew what he was doing, and this includes countless "trained" PPDs that owners had spent ( actually, a more accurate term here would be "wasted" ) large amounts of their hard-earned cash on.

I almost don't bother anymore. People look at you like you are crazy....."oh my dog would fight in the face of an attacker......." "Look..here are videos of my dog working..." (All which show a dog being worked on a schutzhund field by a known decoy a who is wearing a huge jute sleeve??!!!!???)

When I say the words "sleeve fixation" and get blank looks I grind my teeth and walk away........

Honestly....what is up?

Also...what is up with the cowed look that a lot of the PPD I have seen have.

They slink about next to their owners flinching...is it the E-collar misuse?

None of the MWD I have been around have that look.....its so frustrating.

Sigh..I'll be quiet now.

Willie,
A big part of the problem with people that have already bought PPDs ( which turn out substandard ) is that they have spent *big* bucks and they just can not admit that they've basically been taken in what amounts to a scam.
I have said this dozens of times here on the forum, but I'll state it again - The PPD world is mostly fly-by-night amateurs that have no idea about how to train a PPD, and the buyers of said PPDs do a poor job of researching and/or testing a potential expensive purchase that is in the end, useless.
And the majority of PPDs sold fall into that category.

I have tested many dogs that cost 35k that were "trained" as a PPD and were unable to pass my basic temperament test. I wouldn't even accept those dogs for training, let alone sell them.
And then the owners, instead of being angry at the PPD vendor that sold them a crappy dog, instead go on and on about how unfair my testing is.
Morons.

"Let the buyer beware".