The dog is shut down - he has no clue why he is being corrected, so he just emotionally, mentally and physically shuts down as a copeing mechanism and possibly to also avoid another correction...

I back the marker training - forget everything you thought you knew about training and start again.

Make a rule for now - no OB corrections until you have re-taught everything to your dog (manners are another issue). This means he knows for sure, 100%, what is expected of him BEFORE there is ever a correction.

Just so you can make it easier to not correct, flat collar only, long line (drop it and stand on it) on the dog while you start training. You can use your food (or toy) to shape, lure and capture, but you cannot touch the dog or the leash. Then mark, mark, mark and mark somemore. You can also teach fun stuff like spin, through your legs, weave through your legs...so that when you take a break from training the "tough" commands you can build drive with playful commands and games. This is also and awesome bond re-builder!

And just in case you missed it:

Leadership
http://leerburg.com/puppygroundwork.htm

Marker Training
http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf


What great reads!!

We started out using pure marker training... somewhere in there we must have transitioned over to the more prevalent "yank and crank" method...

He has an EXCELLENT recall. Anywhere, anytime. If he happens to find a cat to chase, I can call him off mid-chase.

He also knows the basic commands sit, down, stand, and in addition he knows spin, roll, high five, chair, place, touch, and take it. I can even get him to retrieve a dime!

I find that most of the troubles come when he is barking at someone/something in excitement, whining in excitement, and staying in one place when excited. I realized I was making the problem worse by giving many corrections (upping the ante) instead of one big one.

He doesn't quiet when I tell him to. He'll move on to low growls and whining, and squirming around in circles because he is afraid I'm going to correct him. Therefore, I don't think he understands what I want. He used to stop barking when I told him to when I was using the e-collar. Now, not so much. I feel like he doesn't respect physical corrections the same way he does e-corrections (and they were very mild, level 1-3.

" I feel like he doesn't respect physical corrections the same way he does e-corrections (and they were very mild, level 1-3."

I feel, OTOH, that Niomi is right and that he has shut down in confusion and stress.

I'd go with exactly what she says with starting at Step One with every basic ob command, and put the tools away for now.


eta "I find that most of the troubles come when he is barking at someone/something in excitement, whining in excitement, and staying in one place when excited." Desensitizing, calmness, focus on you, alternate behaviors -- these are the fixes for what you describe.

We can help with any or all of them.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/09/2010 02:55 PM)
Edit reason: eta

So his ob is good but he can't quiet when you tell him Karissa?

I have trouble getting him to quiet when he is excited. That is the only time he barks and whines anyway, though.

I'm planning to retrain everything in french so he has no former associations...

You need to work on some rewards for him showing quiet control. You rewarded him for the obedience commands right? But you've just tried correcting him for making noise but didnt let him know when he was doing right. All "quiet" means to him right now is Uh Oh.

And French won't help.

Just wanted to ask something, and since I'm extremely novice compared to others here it might not be a good suggestion.

You say you can call him off mid-chase on a cat, why can't you just call him over when he's barking and mark and reward then? I carry treats in my pocket all the time to reinforce behaviors periodically.

eta. Also, Ed says that many small corrections build up the drive in dogs, whereas one big correction turns off the drive. Maybe that could be adding to your problem too?

 Quote: steve strom

You need to work on some rewards for him showing quiet control. You rewarded him for the obedience commands right? But you've just tried correcting him for making noise but didnt let him know when he was doing right. All "quiet" means to him right now is Uh Oh.

Right to the exact nitty-gritty.

Teach what you do want. As Steve said, "quiet" means nothing more to him now than "I'm about to be randomly punished again."

What you DO want should be started away from the excitement triggers. The triggers are outside his reactive zone while you work on focus and upbeat ob.

Personally, I would go so far back that I'd re-load the marker. I agree that French is irrelevant. A command sometimes needs to be replaced when it's tainted (like the recall when the trainer has called and then corrected when the dog got there, for slowness or whatever). In this case, I believe that putting away the correction tools, reloading your marker, and just starting over, and working on focus away from the excitement triggers until it's great before you even gradually introduce the distractions -- I believe this is going to do wonders for both of you.

I applaud you for posting and putting it all out there, too.