Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26395 - 09/24/2003 02:34 PM |
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Wow, tough crowd...I'm glad you are all so concerned with the well being of my neighbors safety as well as the future of my misguided puppy due to my incompetence.
Some of the comments to my questions really suprised me. I had to go back and read my original post to see if I painted the wrong picture. Apparently the impression I left was that of a blood-thirsty uncontrolable dog that hates everyone. What I am talking about is a young dog who is essentially still a puppy. At times he has some discipline problems that are addressed as they happen.
I will agree that the dog biting the 12 year old boy was my fault. It happened because I had him on a 15 ft. retractible walking leash with his prong collar. When the other dog ran up to him I immediately shortened his lead and restrained him. In his excitement, he tried to back out of his collar and was choking himself. I knelt down by him to hold his body so he wouldn't choke himself and to try an calm him, he squirmed away from my arms, and in the process the brake on the leash unlocked. Everything happened very quickly. Yes that was my fault. Will it happen again...NO.
The incident with the neighbors cat. The dog never touched the woman or the cat. It would be difficult for them to come after me or the dog just because my dog scared their cat.
Also, maybe I gave the wrong impression about the corrections I give. Believe me, he doesn't get away with anything. I make it very clear what kind of bahavior is unacceptable. I am working on the family and making sure he doesn't get away with anything when I'm not there (Believe me, he acts like a different dog when I'm not at home).
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26396 - 09/24/2003 02:59 PM |
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Dee wrote -Wow, 8 months old and this aggressive....IMO you have a dog with weak nerves, that is fear aggressive and is untrust worthy.
My reply - Though that is a good deduction, the puppy could be acting that way because the owner is sub-concisously or on purpose applauding the puppys actions. Like most dog owner's there is a wrap scene of pride in an aggressive dog, but I don't understand this if the dog is out of control. Either way like Dee mentioned the people most at risk is the family that has to live with the dog that thinks he next in line for Alpha.
Mike, you need to get a good trainer in there to see if the puppy can be turned around. Most fear bitters this young will take steps backwards barking and when your back is turned they may try to bite. This little guy is making frontal lunges off leash, like when he went after the cat and dog or other people in the yard.
But she might be right.
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26397 - 09/24/2003 03:12 PM |
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Mike wrote - Apparently the impression I left was that of a blood-thirsty uncontrolable dog that hates everyone.
My reply - No Mike you have probably a nice strong willed puppy, that obeys you when you are in control, sometimes. But like you mentioned you walking your GSD like he's a cocker spaneial on a retractable leashed. Don't you know that a 50lb dog in full charge can strip the gears in the cheaper retractable leads or just pull the handle right out of your hand. Notice how hard it was to control him when he was after the little dog and or 12yr. old. So don't take it like you are getting creamed, I've been called a dumb ass on this forum and nobody got bit. So the real guns are not here, yet. Lisa, Dee and Renee are really quite tactiful, you got read between the lines to see they disapprove. But mostly they want to help you with out the boot in the butt.
I want to share what I got, It's your fault. Take this constructive advice and heed, it the puppy is not a blood-thirsty uncontrolable dog now because he is a puppy. It's up to you, what do you want the future is yours. You the Alpha remember. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26398 - 09/24/2003 03:23 PM |
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Lee and Laura had some very informative replies, I've learned through your mistakes Mike, keep posting as you solve each issue. Read Lisa and Dees post this might be fear based? Though going by your post you have done quite a bit of socialization, but you also said he obeys you and couldn't control on lead, now this is a puppy isn't? You are accepting responcibilty now do something about it.
By the way aggressive dog on your neighbor property or just barking all the time is a liability and you can be fined. In my city anyway I had two bitches that barked all the time cost me $50 in fine.
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26399 - 09/24/2003 03:25 PM |
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I might agree about the fear biting thing if I thought he was afraid of anything. As far as I can tell, the only thing he is afraid of is me. When I say "NO!", he stops in his tracks. There doesn't seem to be any hesitation on his part when he goes after something. He has always been that way - Not afraid of anything.
If, in fact, I am reinforcing this bad behavior, I don't know how. I give him a correction at the first sign of aggression and praise him when he relaxes.
I will take him to a local training facility that trains K9 police dogs and see if their trainer has any input. Although I don't believe the problem to be as bad as it may be perceived, I don't want to take any chances.
Hey, here's a scenerio. I have been working on prey drive with him and his ball drive is getting really intense. Occasionally he will "miss his target" and hit me in the hand or arm when lunging after the ball. Does this warrant a correction. My thinking is that a correction will lower his drive.
Also, he appears to have a high prey drive and will chase anything that will run. A couple weeks ago I was exercising him with a ball in a field behind my house and I started running away from him. Of course he ran after me, jumped, and scratched my back with his teeth. This may sound like aggressive behavior, but he has mouthed things since the day we got him. He has pretty much stopped through some mild corrections, but when he gets excited, he still does it. The impression I get is that he doesn't realize how big he is and that he can do some damage. I correct him when this happens, but I don't want to break his spirit.
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26400 - 09/24/2003 03:40 PM |
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Mike the only thing that proves is you need to get a Pro trainer. The hand bites could be avoided with the ball on the string training technique so popular here.
And the biting on the back could be remedeied with him running on lead. Really activiies (like this him bitting you) contrubite to his attitude if I can bite Alpha someday, I'll be Alpha.
Mike get a trainer, he a good pup. Stop messing him up. Stop bragging on your puppy, he may be a great dog, but you need some help. We all do at time so I'm not trying to be negative.
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26401 - 09/24/2003 03:41 PM |
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are you sure he is really missing or letting you know that he wants the ball. Making it clear that he cant bite you will not break his spirit. when he becomes a little older and really nails you then you will want to do more than break his spirit
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26402 - 09/24/2003 11:54 PM |
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I have always limited contact with other dogs because of the detrimental effects of a young dog being dominated by a larger dog. I believe aggression to other dogs out of fear would be much harder to overcome than aggression to gain dominance.
We see other dogs every day during our walks at a distance. I try to keep his attention so he becomes desensitized to the presence of other animals. Based upon this information, I believe his dog aggression to be fear based. Just because he is not cowering behind your leg does not mean he is not afraid. Many dogs will go on the offense out of fear. Your pup, because he is young, is still going through developmental phases, and will continue to do so for the next couple of years. He will need constant socialization during that time.
You have a big problem and I'm glad you're taking it seriously enough to get help with it. Having a dog aggressive dog, quite frankly, SUCKS big green ones. I've been there. And having a nice friendly dog attacked by a dog aggressive dog SUCKS too. I've been there as well, and am currently working her through her generalized fear of other dogs as a result of said attack, at great financial expense to myself, so please excuse me if I'm a little "passionate" on the subject. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I believe that with fear based behavior problems, you must get to the root of the problem, which is the fear, before you will see improvement. That means repeated positive experiences with the fear-inducing stimulus present but at a distance that the dog can handle, decreasing the distance gradually over time, while preventing any situations from occurring in which your dog might have a fear based reaction. Where obedience comes into the picture is that you can use it to change your dog's mood at the time that the stimulus is present, assuming that obedience is fun for him. If obedience is not fun for him, then use tricks instead. People have a hard time being too serious about high fives and spins.
Others will probably disagree with me. That's fine. Disagree away! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Good luck with your pup.
Lisa & Lucy, CGC, Wilderness Airscent
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26403 - 09/25/2003 12:02 AM |
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Michael, you are playing with fire.
I get the impression that you don't have experience with a strong GSD. You need to listen to EVERYTHING you have been told here more than you could possibly realze.
You obviously love your dog, but you have no real idea of how to handle a dog that has the drives that you are describing. In fact, I cringed at many of your comments because I could see that you are completely unaware of how your behaviour is contributing to the behaviour you DON'T want in your dog.Willi and Don are correct about the ball playing 100%!!
Aggression to your children for any reason at any time is UNACCEPTABLE!!!! I have 4 girls at home and even my dominant hard as nails bitch would let my baby take food out of her dish. It is critical that you establish with this dog that it is a bottom of the pond low life in the pack below your kids!
Why do you have this dog? What are his bloodlines?If it for a pet only then perhaps you may want to reconsider and place the dog with a more experienced handler and start over with a softer dog. A strong working GSD is not meant to be a pet, but rather should have a job to do. You may think you can change gentics, but you can't.
As Lee mentioned to you, positive only AKC type training is too late to apply for you now.The dog has (unintentionally, but yet undeniably)been allowed to form some very bad habits/behaviours. Only a truly knowledgeable trainer can help you, if it's not already too late for you.
I wish you luck, but don't make the mistake of letting your heart cloud your brain.Think about what you have and what you are doing and in what direction you are heading.Then do what you must, regardless of what that may be.
No one ever said life was supposed to be easy, life is what you make of it!! |
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Re: Aggressive 8 month old GSD
[Re: Michael Croell ]
#26404 - 09/25/2003 06:59 AM |
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The behavior of having him on the prong and choking up on the lead is classic for the owner of the fear agressive dog.
You choke up and he feels confined and tense. I agree with the comments on desensitization. There is also a point for correction. I agree, you need someone who knows how to deal with the problem and has the right sense of timing...someone who knows dogs well, will know what is going on in his head at any point in the sequence. Please go back and read all the posts on dog aggression.
It is sad that your puppy was not properly socialized to other dogs. The problem is with dogs with unknown reactions -- you have to go out of your way to set up positive dog interactions for a puppy......I don't think it is ever too late but that it takes a lot lot lot lot lot of work to make him more comfortable with other dogs and he will never be completely trustworthy.
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