LOL! Just got back and starting laughing when I read your reply quoting me. Just what I need -- to seem to be spouting his stuff.

I was thinking of that guy when I typed "saponins" ... I changed it immediately to "potatoes" but you had already picked up my post to reply. He has some interesting ideas, for sure, and opinion is what they are (that I know of, anyway).

"I can't seem to find any research-based stuff, just Abady's information, which seems to be his opinion. "

There is no research backing up most of his opinions, as far as I know.

It's not "saponins" I don't want to give; it's potatoes. And it's the quantity, IMO, more than whether it's potato or a non-gluten grain (for most dogs). That is, I would rather give a little rice than a lot of potato. And I'd rather give a little potato than a lot of any grain.

 Quote: konnie hein

.... When I fed only kibble several years ago, I fed California Natural. The ingredients are pretty simple, and it is probably mostly rice, but I wonder how "bad" that food is compared to the high-end grain-frees that contain potatoes instead of rice.

You could do a lot worse than that one. A named meat meal in first place, a whole grain instead of fractions and manufacturing throwaways ....

The hysterical thing about the "need" for starches in kibble...

We just switched our cat to Ziwi Peak.

Ingredients?
Venison - Meat (min. 57.7%), Hoki Fish (min. 12%), Venison - Liver (min. 9%), Tripe, Heart and Kidney (min. 7%), Chicory Inulin, Green-lipped Mussel (min. 4%), Fish Oil, Lecithin, Kelp, Vitamins and Minerals. Naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols.

They seem to have no trouble whatsoever producing a kibbled-style food without starches.

The dog ingredient lists are exactly the same.

My cats love Ziwi Peak. It makes good training treats, too.

I think that inulin (carbs known as fructans) are used the way starches are as kibble "glue."

I admit that I mostly assume that, having a limited idea of what inulins are (kind of a soluble probiotic fiber from the roots of chicory and Jerusalem artichokes). I'm not up to snuff on inulins, except that I believe that they are fructose oligosaccharides. (Oligosaccharides are carbs containing simple sugars, and this one contains fructose.)



I don't think kibble can be made without starch or a starch-like substance as filler/glue.

I would love to learn differently, however! Anyone have a kibble list with no "binder" in it?


eta

NOTHING against what I have read is a very good food, BTW. Just pointing out that I think kibbling requires starch (or something like it) as glue/binder/filler.

Good food, yes. Carb-free? Not at all. (Even kelp is not carb-free.) I'm also not saying "carb" = bad. Yogurt and green produce and green tripe and many other foods I am happy to give my dog have relatively high carb contents.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/25/2011 06:09 PM)
Edit reason: etas

I have recently fed some Ziwi Peak to my dogs and they love it.
I have been having a hard time trying to find other protein sources lately, so I have fed both the canned and jerky-like food.
Venison and Fish, Lamb too just to change it up.

Similar to dehydration. They refer to the process as air drying.
No re-hydration necessary, although I can attest that it makes a very nice "gravy" when mixed with THK or plain hot water. It can be very useful for getting extra water into a dog that tends to "under-hydrate".

Ziwi Peak dog food next to Orijen kibble for a size and texture comparison:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/Uncle_Sams_Kid/79faf05c.jpg

Obviously, approach manufacturer claims with a degree of skepticism, but here is how they describe the production process:

 Quote:

The gentle air-drying process delivers a high quality ‘dry' food product, whilst maintaining the nutritional integrity of the natural raw materials.

It is a sterile and safe method under controlled conditions. The process provides for exactly the right level of moisture removal to make the product shelf-stable, without altering its state or disrupting its nutritional value.

Is that made by Addiction? The store I by from said they could get Addiction in, and then asked if I wanted dehydrated or kibble!? It was on a voicemail, so I couldn't ask more questions. I didn't realize they made kibble!