Hi Tom,

To answer your question about my GSD male - his reactions were not unpredictable or fear-based, and he was not at all nervous or defensive around strange dogs in general. It was just any hint of a challenge for #1 status from another dog and he would go into immediate full "bring it on" mode. If we were out walking on a leash and a strange dog got too close despite my asking owners not to allow it, I would firmly tell Dillon to knock it off as soon as I saw him start to posture (hackles up, tail up and stiff, rising up on his toes, giving them the 1000 yard stare), put myself between him and the other dog, and walk on. I do think it was deeply imprinted - he was just a big confident male who wasn't going to accept any dominance from another dog. But it wasn't random dog aggression: situations where he might act stupid were generally easy to see coming and prevent.

You say your dog's aggression towards other dogs is fear-based and that he is afraid and nervous when walking down the street. Could you explain a bit more of what you see that makes you think this? What kind of collar and leash do you use to walk him?

Hi Tom, I am going through a similar issue with my now 9 month old GSD. Fear aggression is one of the most difficult types of aggression to work with because it is very difficult to take the fear away. If the dog is comforted while he is fearful-it reinforces it, if he is disciplined it reinforces it... The issues that I was dealing with, with my pup were very serious, and I turned to the board here for help. I have experience working with dogs but needed another opinion to set me on the right path.

The advice you are getting here is extremely sound. If you send a dog with fear issues to an unfamilar place with an unfamilar person who is suddenly in authority you're only going to add to that dog's fear. And even if she is successful you still have to get the dog to react to you once it comes home.

The marker training and desensitizing that the others are recommending have helped me so much with Amber, in just a month or so she is focused on me, her reactive zone is down, and we are enjoying walks instead of dreading them.

This works takes time and it will be MANY more months before Amber is at the point where she is not reactive-if ever, but I WILL have control over her. I practice CPR with my training, consistency, patience, and repition that is the only way you're dog will improve. Even if you decide to use this trainer, maybe arrange private lessons and one thing I strongly recommend is get the names of other fear aggressive dog's owners she has worked with and see if their dogs have improved and how much, if she can't give you references don't use her, talk to vets. Personally, electric (invisible) fences are great if you have a quiet dog, but I have seen dogs get excited, run through them, then not be able to return to their yard because they are getting shocked (they work both ways), AND I've also seen dogs respect their fences and have a stray dog come into the yard and attack the other dog. They're good in a perfect world, but have their issues in an imperfect one. Yeah, I totally agree you should be able to walk down the street without your dog lashing out, I'd like the same thing with my dog, but unfortunately, those aren't the dogs we have and if I had known my dog would have these issues I'd probably have chosen a different pup BUT I have her, and its my responsibility, and my obligation to do everything I can to reduce or eliminate this behavior. Maybe you don't have the time to do all the training but before you send your guy off to a trainer please thoroughly research them and their methods. Good Luck.

re-reading this I notice that you say the dog is good for you but has issues with the wife. I would speculate that your wife perhaps need to work with the dog to allow him to recognize her as an authority figure. Your dog doesn't react to other dogs at all with you?

 Quote: Jodi Moen

.I practice CPR with my training, consistency, patience, and repition that is the only way you're dog will improve.

Beautifully stated Jodi!!

Thanks for your interest everyone.

To answer a previous question, the dog has been through basic obediance training and then the next level after that, more than a year ago. They were AKC training classes held at our vets office. They were treat based training, I dont know if there is an official word for this type of training. He also runs a kennel/training facilty. He's not rock solid on any of his commands though.

The trainer came over yesterday to evaluate the dog. She brought her own German Shepard and her own Chihuahua. She spent a couple of hours with us and the dog alone and then she asked me to walk our dog as she walked her GSD down the road. She wanted to see how our dog reacted. Her dog (GSD) was rock solid well behaved even as mine began to get agitated as we moved closer. My dog started to wimper, pull and get skittish. The trainer beleives that our dog is not viscious and that he is acting out of fear. She beleives she can help. She proposes two weeks of board to train. She boards in her house with her own 3 dogs and two school aged children. She has acerage which she uses to train the dogs. She says that she will start with marker training and then move to using e-collar. She said that near the end of the two weeks my wife and I are to come to her place and participate in what she is doing and she will teach us what she and the dog have been doing. She emphasizes that this is where our work starts and that we have to continue everyday with the training. She is local. She said that she is always available for follow ups by coming to our house or by going to her place for refresher's or if my wife or I have questions. She claims that after her two weeks and if we stay vigilant and consistent and continue the training that this dog will become rock solid on all his basic commands and that even if he saw a distraction he wanted to go after he won't budge unless we give him permission to budge. She didnt offer any guarantee's but only that she would do her very best and that she beleived the dog (given a good start and continued work on our part) will be fine in the long run. When she transitions the dog back to us he will be in the e-collar and that we should continue using it and training him indefinately. I read alot of Ed Frawley's e-articles over the last week and while I know e-collars are controversial he seems to endorse them when used properly and at the right stage of training.

She comes recommended from a coworker who had a coon hound with a similar penchant to lash out at other dogs. And a Great Dane who went to her for basic obediance. He is much more of an experienced dog person than I and he can't say enough about her. She has offered up additional references, which to date I have not followed up on. We tried to do this a month or two ago with a guy who advertised on the local pet radio show. He was less than impressive and after three sessions we dropped him as he spent more time talking about transcendental meditation than about us and our dog.

When she eventually left she told us to call her if we had any questions. No pressure. No guarantee's. She can't take the dog until next month as she is currently working with a dog and is booked until then.

In the meantime we are waiting out our 10 day quarantine (apparantly the women walking her dog was scratched)and excercising the dog as much as possible in our back yard as we are not able to walk him off our property. If he tangles with another dog he will be labeled viscious and we will land in doggie court so from now on he lives in the house, in the back yard inside our fully fenced yard or he is on a leash with someone who is responsible.

I'm open to any and all suggestions, comments, directions, admonishments or the like.

Thanks

"My dog started to wimper, pull and get skittish. The trainer beleives that our dog is not viscious and that he is acting out of fear. "


An e-collar on a fearful dog.

That was what I was expecting, Tom, when I advocated against the two-week board-and-train. Two weeks is not a reasonable length of time, IMHO, to desensitize a dog and to use the e-collar for proofing well-learned basic ob. Two weeks tells me that the e-collar will be used in a way that I would never use it. JMHO. There may be different opinions, and I hope they will add to the thread.


http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=298263

 Quote: ana kozlowsky

Lenka, there are better ways to deal with aggression and correcting a fearful dog for aggression with an e-collar is a sure way to more trouble.

Forget about the collar for now and work on obedience. Motivational methods work best with fearful dogs. E-collar could be used in later stages to proof the OB. Use for this purpose is very much difference from using it as an aversive.

In his DVD Ed is using e-collar on temperamentally sound dogs. He is not trying to deal with temperamental issues.

"She has offered up additional references, which to date I have not followed up on."

I would. If I were considering this (which I personally wouldn't be, but if I were), I'd ask for the references regarding fearful dogs, and I'd follow up on them.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

An e-collar on a fearful dog.

That was what I was expecting, Tom, when I advocated against the two-week board-and-train.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=298263

 Quote: Ana Kozlowsky

Lenka, there are better ways to deal with aggression and correcting a fearful dog for aggression with an e-collar is a sure way to more trouble.

Forget about the collar for now and work on obedience. Motivational methods work best with fearful dogs. E-collar could be used in later stages to proof the OB. Use for this purpose is very much difference from using it as an aversive.

In his DVD Ed is using e-collar on temperamentally sound dogs. He is not trying to deal with temperamental issues.

I agree with Connie 100%. An e-collar should be a tool - and not one used on a fearful dog. I personally don't agree with the end result of the 2 week training being the e-collar. My question would be, rather, has she truly started desensitizing the dog (if that's what you'd call it in this situation) or just teaching the dog that if he does it he's gonna get zapped.

Just MHO (my humble opinion) but perhaps something to think about.

I totally agree, treating fear with fear doesn't sound like a good idea.