Quote: lauren jeffery

Work on the marker a little, and then retrain the stuff that you are having a hard time with from step one. Not adding your command until its just what you want.

Mary,

To work on that marker a little, I'd begin with "charging the mark" - meaning what ever word you decide to use as his marker, you would simply say the word and give a treat, numerous times, not asking for any behavior. All you are doing at this point is showing Finn that when you say "YES" or what ever word you select, he gets a reward. (The word might be helpful instead of the clicker since your little ones like to hide that! ) After doing this 25 times or so, he KNOWS that this words means good things are coming his way, which is what makes that MARK so useful in then telling him the exact moment he gave you the behavior you were looking for.

When using the marker system correctly, a command is normally not introduced until after the dog understands the behavior pretty well. ie: For the sit, you would lure the dog into a sit by taking a treat and luring his head upwards and back, which normally will cause a dog to sit. As soon as he sits, you MARK, then reward. After a while of luring and Finn sitting each time, getting marked and rewarded each time, you would then add the word for that behavior. ie: Lure, mark, add the command, then reward.

What is so wonderful about the way you've been training Finn is although he might be a bit confused about what it is he should be offering, you've done NO damage to your relationship with him! Like Lauren said, it is obvious he is happy to work with you and is paying great attention to getting those treats - all a great sign.

Yeah, but remember not to add the commands in untill you have what you want.

Also, paying attention to your body language is a big one. Dogs learn to read what you are asking through watching you. The voice commands are more for us untill you begin working at a distance. Commands really don't mean anything to them for a while.

Deliberate, clear body language is a big help. There is a lot of stuff that can be trained through body language, and it will help you a lot in the long run to have it clear in your mind.

For example, when I want my dog to sit in front on a recall I draw my shoulders back slightly as she gets to me. This is a cue for her to sit.

It was taught as a puppy, when I would recall her I would be squatting down and encouraging her to come to me. Once the recall was taught I would stand up, square my shoulders and give her a hand signal to sit.

The hand signal was faded when it was clear that she had the idea, and standing up became the cue. Eventualy all I would need to do is a tiny shoulder movement.

The hand signal itself began as a lure when she was really little, once again clear body language.

if you keep body language in mind as you work with him it will help as you build into more advanced obedience.

 Quote: mary mckeever

Watching it more then a few times and watching others who marker train this makes loads of sense. It's time for me to study study study. It looks so very easy but yes, I need to go back and start from scratch. Keep the commands but definitely make sure both he and I know exactly what those commands mean.

Have I got this part right so far?

Mary,

I personally would drop the commands for a while and just focus on perfecting the timing of your mark and getting Finn to understand that Mark tells him the moment he did what you wanted. Forget voice for a bit (except for the mark!).

After charging the mark and Finn knows that your word (mark) means goodies, then:

Start each training session with something along the lines of "Are you ready??" as you are getting the treat bag out - this lets him know you guys are going to be training/working...

Then lure him into what ever position you are working on for that short session.

MARK the moment he does what you've lured him to do, pause a second then REWARD. No voice other than YES or what ever your marker is! If you are luring into a sit and he goes down (just an example) a simple "nope" and start again.

Work on one behavior for each session while you are retraining yourselves, then eventually you can add a few behaviors each session - after he understands them clearly.

Since there has been a bit of "muddying the water" with clickers, handsignals, body language, etc... I'd strongly advise going back to the basics and working hard at being as clear as you can be and ALWAYS trying to use the same marker, luring, etc... during each session.

One thing I found helpful to me when just beginning was the explanation that the mark is almost like a snapshot in the dog's mind of the moment he was doing something that you marked. This helped me work on my timing in that I tried to mark the moment Falcon hit what I was asking for - even if the treat is a moment later - he knows the exact second the BEHAVIOR was right.

ETA: When you are done training that session, end with a happy "all done!" good boy, etc... and put the treat bag away.

1. Are you ready? tells him you guys are going to be training.

2. Lure/mark reward. "Yes!"

3. Evenutally you will be adding the command, but not at first. (This won't be for long since he does understand some of the commands - but I'd still start over fresh to clarify and to get him to focus on the marker more than any "accidental" body language).

4. "Nope" is the only negative for a behavior which you were not asking for.

5. "All done!" at the end of the session.

And you are sooooo right... the videos of the pros doing this DOES make it look easy! But it really isn't hard when you just break it down into specific steps and do your best to make each step clear and understandable to the dog.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

Aaron politely went straight for the juglar... I was going to ease you into this Mary. Don't freak out or start hating on yourself, but....

What Aaron said.

Have you read the free online ebook on Marker Training or do you have the dvd?

I don't do subtle well.
I regret it, because I often cause a great deal of embarrassment and resentment to people whom I genuinely like and want to see succeed.

What I *do* see in the video is a dog who is very engaged, despite his confusion, and an owner who wants to do the right thing by her dog.

That's a pretty damned good foundation to train with, if you ask me.

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

That's a pretty damned good foundation to train with, if you ask me.

AND video to go with it. No better way to get training advice than putting up a video for people to SEE what is going on.

Video is MUCH easier than text when it comes to offering advice for stuff like this.

Keep 'em comin.:smile:

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

I don't do subtle well.
I regret it, because I often cause a great deal of embarrassment and resentment to people whom I genuinely like and want to see succeed.

It may not have been subtle Aaron but it wasn't rude, IMO. (Hard for me to recognise however, 'cause I've never come across too bluntly or harsher than intended.... ahem. :blush

You are always willing to help anyone who wants to do right by their dog, and THAT alwasys comes across.

Ok! Sorry I have not been ignoring the advice. I had some more med issues with kidney stones earlier this week. Percecete and dog training big no no lol atleast for me. I would just confuse both of us more. Now I finally get the mark. Tomorrow we are going to play and work in the snow a bit. I gotta grab one of the old cane poles from my grandfather's place. I think eventually the frozen pheasant wings and feet will be a fun thing to do come summer.

So tomorrow's training plan. Potty break. E-collar on (have to use it if I want him off leash in our area.). Not going to use it though! He does get come and me whistling or just going Uh Uh just having it on! I am so darn proud of him just with that!!! Ok so 3 mins charging the mark. Gotta think of a word I won't forget and not use with my kids or hubby * grins and evil chuckle* must also be language appropriate and I guess age appropriate. Damn. Lol.

Then let's play catch with his wing a ball or play chase in the snow or even lob the snowballs for about 10-15 mins. And before we go in one last 3 min charge the mark word.

Yes or no?

If you have not yet charged the new mark, I would do so for a day or two, several times a day, numerous times each "session" - without doing any working with the new word. Just concentrate on correctly charging the mark and getting that very clear in his mind.

Charging the mark should take longer than two three minute sessions - you'd be better off with 20 one minute sessions spread throughout the day rather than two three minutes sessions 15 minutes apart, and do this for at least two days. Consider it "marker training preamble" and you are training him that this new word ALWAYS means something fun coming his way.

When you DO begin your first training session, you will want to start with the "are you ready" etc... as mentioned in the earlier email. Have a plan and work that plan!

Would you like a link to the online free marker ebook?

 Quote: barbara schuler

If you have not yet charged the new mark, I would do so for a day or two, several times a day, numerous times each "session" - without doing any working with the new word. Just concentrate on correctly charging the mark and getting that very clear in his mind.

Good advice...
And I know there's a ton of info in this thread, but just to be clear regarding charging the mark (I'm going to assume you will use the word 'Yes', but use whatever word you want)

You say 'Yes!', pause for 1-2 seconds, then hand the dog a treat. (Make sure that your 'Yes!' is separated by 1-2 seconds from the action of handing the dog the treat.) Repeat this for 1 minute.

Do this multiple times throughout the day. Use really good treats.

You know your marker is 'charged' when you say 'Yes!', and the dog looks to you in anticipation of the treat.

ok.. so here is what I have so far. I also think I have been doing this wrong. I am saying Mark. then opening my hand for the treat. This was taped on our patio so because there were a few distractions outside. Kids, cars, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyyK54rR3v0

One issue. He isnt looking at my hand because he learned early on the leave it command. You will kind of see what I mean. Also, he is loosing interest after doing this 5 times so far today. Only 2-3 mins long sessions.