Thanks this is getting to the meat of the subject for me. I understand now that it possible but it will take some hard work and dedication (and a good dog). I wonder why (Air scenting & Tracking, together)is so difficult if it's a inborn instinct?

Since I've decided to air scent, here is how I change my practice. I will hide from my dogs, and my wife gives the command "find him" after about 15-30 minutes they spend more time with their nose in the air then nose on the ground, even though they have been semi trained to track (the female will nose to the ground longer). It doesn't take long and they find me, I praise the heck out of them. Is this a good start, can I go back to tracking, after their good at air scenting? Is this training or playing?

Should I train one for air scenting and the other for tracking? Especailly since I now know why you track, thanks to L Swanston (or Spock that a compliment, not being snide MS. Logicial). It shows the direction of travel to narrow the search and probably is faster if the subjetc/item is not far away, maybe. Thank you, again. Talking cave men, I had accepted that you find things and people with it, no logic just learn how to do it.

The Officer that introduced the ideal of air scenting stated it was the wave of future. And that foot step tracking is only used, because it was a tried and true way of the past, just like wearing leather sole boots has given way to athletic duty footwear, so will ...

I didn't see this....
He stated searching for drugs in a salvage yard full of cars, his air scenting dog found the drugs faster. Because the dog, didn't have a handler pointing and slowing him down. Now this guy really was pushing for more air scenting dogs, Labs really. He just happened to sell Labs and had a couple for $6k each. He explained that as long as the Labs had ball/prey drive he could get them cheap at the rescue center and turn them into service dogs. He mentioned since their is no bite work, which mean less Ob is needed, his turn around is more granteed. I have resolved,thanks L Swanson and reading that tracking is definitely needed.

I'm off the subject(I'm not as precise as some, sorry). Do you have any other training suggestions that can make the dogs really want to find me. Should I give them treats after they find me, maybe the ball or just praise? VanCamp post gave me hope and insight, now I have to put in the work.

Am I starting out ok? When she lets them go, they start out nose down then its a trout he smells the air back down, back up then its a full out ran toward my direction then their all over me, jumping up and getting praised (of course that will have to stop). I'm usually hiding behind a tree or lying down face down, in deep grass.

Is this training or playing? Its seem easier and funnier for the dogs and me then Tracking am I missing something? Extend the search?

You're not the only one that thinks airscenting is funner than tracking. Many airscent dog handlers feel that way. Heck, I watch our other handlers work their dogs all the time, and if I've had a frustrating day, wonder why I torture myself with tracking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It sounds like you're going in the right direction. I wonder, do you have anyone that has trained this before who can help you? We had a guy join our team recently, who had started airscent work with his working line GSD on his own, using his family and friends as "subects". He thought they were doing great, but after only one demonstration, our team spotted several trouble spots that he needed to correct. His bitch has great potential, but the human in the equation needed a little direction (it's almost ALWAYS the human in the equation that needs the work!).

As far as reward, the common school of thought is that the play reward is the best. Praise alone will not be enough for the majority of dogs, especially when the work gets really hard. Most dogs aren't going to search for hours on end in rough terrain for some stranger for a simple "Atta boy.". So, yes, a huge part of the training IS playing.

Remember, though, that you're going to be training a sequence of behaviors. It's not just about finding the subject. There is also the recall (alert) and refind. For now, though, focus on the find, and really play play play with them when they find you. You should probably have someone else do the hiding pretty soon, since they already have the basic idea.

Again, if you can find someone knowledgeable to work with, that would be for the best. Nothing beats having that feedback that you can't give yourself.

I think, maybe the reason that the officer you speak of thinks that airscenting is the "wave of the future", is that police departments have traditionally trained tracking for locating "subjects". SAR handlers have been using airscenting for ages. It's not a new thing, but maybe for some police deparments it is? I dunno. That's not my area.

For what purpose are you training? Just for fun? SAR? Sport?

Lots of good advise you have gotten here. One thing I would like to add here, though I have only been in SAR for a few years. Both the dog I have trained to trail and airscent simutanously. I know, trailing is not tracking. I use 2 different commands. On command both will either put their nose up or down. I have noticed that both dogs would switch to trailing or visa versa, whatever they need to find the victim naturally. Yes, you have to be able to read the dog. I beleive that if the dog has the proper drives and is well trained then he will not chase critters while he is working. My dogs are the first to give chase when they are not searching, but while they are working they only glance at critters and then go about their buisness. I'm not trying to brag, it just the way a good search dog should be.

Well, you've been at it longer than I have, Stub. I'm still pretty green, just been involved for a little over a year. I'll take your word for it, but I think I'll stick to what I'm doing now, which is basically following the advice of a few tracking dog handlers in the State that I feel know their stuff pretty well. Do you work on lead or off? I've often thought that in and of itself would make a difference. Since I work on lead, I don't want a whole lot of ranging, but rather, want to be right on top of the track, as much as is possible considering wind, terrain, and aging. If we were doing off lead trailing, I'd naturally allow more ranging and fringe following.

As far as focus, I agree. I'm pretty sure my dog would track through a herd of elephants without looking up!

As the outsider here, I found this a fasinating post. Without getting into scent theory, I would think that one would train for the mission and topography one works in such as wilderness, rural, urban, rail etc. I would also think that scent discrimination trail works well on the lost hunter if a PLS and scent article is available. It becomes a little more challenging on multiple suspects in various directions. SDT really has no use in disaster recovery where unkn number of suspects might be present. Scent cone theory and application IMHO might be used for evidence recovery and apprehension based on time of response to scene and threat elimination of area to be searched. Step tracking helps in establishing a definitive course to establish a subject's behaviour and evidence recovery. I agree both styles take "reading the dog" skills. Find and refinds, find and tugs or find and barks work with most any application if the handler trains for it. The wolves, one spoke about, focus on a scent and if trailing a large herd of food scoure also use visual cues for identification and verification of the prey.The comment about the way of the future I did not understand fully as we old timers on this board have used air scenting in some form---bldg search, evidence and human apprehension or finds, for all of my 30+ yrs. in k9 as an LEO, and researcher. Scent cones can be applied to various interdiction missions.One has to realize that scent cone applications depend on street variables we as humans have little control of. Topography, demographics, weather are some. IMHO all of the posters had some great insight. The dog, IMHO, should be allowed to USE whatever resources it can, without human interference to rescue a life, save his/her own, and that of his/her handler as well as finding the bad guys. SAR and LE dogs are basically doing the same work re: scent.--Find and alert the handler I salute you all. Always be worthy of your dog!-DR. L.

Interesting comments, Dr L. I had a question or two, but can't seem to phrase them quite right, and since I can't delete my posts, here's a little joke. Stop me if you've heard this one!

A guy walks into the doctor's office with a banana sticking out of his ear.
Doctor says "You're not eating right!".

Hmmm, OK, here's another.

A guy walks into the doctor's office, wrapped only in saran wrap.
Doctor says "I can clearly see you're nuts!".

I think I'll go to bed now before I sink any lower.......

Doc,

Having considerable time looking at the southend of a northbound tracking dog, I totally agree with you. the dog, when working should be conditioned to use what he needs at the time. When working a dog trained to detect mines, tripwires, booby traps etc, the dog would use the sense of hearing, tracking skills and scouting (airborne) scent skills. It was the training that conditioned to the dog to respond to whatever stimulus tripped his little trigger, based on the totality of the circumstances. Doc, just remember little pea brained dirt ball dog trainers like me and don't lose me in the verbage, It was a great post though Doc.

DFrost

I think the banana problem and saran analogy can be likened to the subject holding two oranges in his lap and thinking what a lovely pair/pear he/she has. It is all Gestalt and based on perception. If it makes the tractor run, so be it IMHO. Mr. Frost we have looked at the southside of many a k9 and that is like a road band always looking at the star's posterior on stage during concert. Back to basics and always be worthy of your dog! Dr. L.

Dr. L., you crack me up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Back to basics and always be worthy of your dog! Dr. L.

I like that statement!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Guess I'll have to learn about tracking real soon. Always enjoy a new challange.