makes sense

I wasn't clear enough. I mean fear of a correction in the event that the dog shows agression towards someone. I don't mean correct the dog just for being nervous or uneasy.

Yes, definitely correct for aggression, but I wouldn't neccessarily make the correction any more harsh per se than a normal firm correction. Basically, just correct and move on. Don't dwell too much on the incident. Correct, then redirect.

Without seeing this animal it is a hard call to say anything that is definate. With that said, from the sounds of it this dog will never turn out ok. You can mask the problems with ob. and people feeding him, which is not a bad idea, but this kinda of dog is not realy safe to be around in crowded area's as he tries to flee when he is scared, loads up a bit when threatend, and I think will fight if he feels his life is in terrible danger and he cannot get away. The danger might not be present, it could be someone going to pet him, but this animal should never be around children. It is just not safe. If he was my dog I would put ob. into him, get Ed's tape, but never forget this dog is not right upstairs. This does not mean he cannot be a wonderfull pet for you, just be aware. Chances are that if he gets ob. and looks good, something will stress him and this is when an accident can happen.

I agree with the positive socialization methods spoken of here. However, as far as agression goes, I definately give a stronger correction. The line in the sand is the point of aggression. All that was said above is true.....but when it comes to true aggression, for me its a level 10 all the way.

Chuck,

Go back and read the origional post. The description in the car is a fear based teritorial (sp) reaction. More of "I am in here, I can't get away, so if you come in I will nail you." The interaction with the neighbor is similar at a lower level. In this case there was no forward movement towards the person. "Hercules was obviously tenative. He stayed back, way back, at the end of his 15 foot flexilead for a minute or two. Eventually as I chatted he came close to me, but never in front.....Finally the lady asked if she could pet my dog and she stretched out her hand for Hercules to sniff from about 3 ft away. Hercules recoiled a foot or two and gave a nasty bark or two. All defense. All insecurity." The dog moved away when the person REACHED for him. This is not a descripion of defense, it is all insecurity. The thing to do with this is ignore the fear and reward the dog approaching the person. Correct for obedience issues only. The dog will have to iniate contact in his own time.

This gets tricky with dogs. If when the person reaches, the dog barks and the person goes away you have taught the dog that acting aggressively will get the person to leave (like with civil training, but fear based). When barking no longer works this may escalate. The dog will still try and run first, but if it can't escape it may resort to increasingly hard bites. So we can't let the dog escape being petted by barking. By having the dog initiate the contact and neither rewarding nor punishing the hesitance, the dog learns that this behavior doesn't make the person go away and they aren't going to do anything to him. At the very least you should be able to teach him to sit quietly while you carry on a conversation with someone.

BTW I wouldn't walk this dog on a flexie. You are not going to get an adequate corection if you need one and if he does go for someone you may not be able to stop him.

No this isn't likely to be a schutzhund dog, but I see no reason that he can't make a fine pet.

Richard, you are really good

Richard,

Good point. After reading the original post again, the type of aggression I am refering to to does not apply here. I am refering to forward aggression. I was sort of veering off into a different type of situation and how I would handle it. It was mainly in response to JParker's post on the level of correction to use for aggression. Your patience and attention to detail once again shines thru! I am not worthy!!LOL When your good your good! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, guys, for the responses. The path forward for us is more socialization and obedience. Some of the responses are hard line "he'll never be safe around anyone" but I tend to disagree because this behavior is a recent development.

When he was a puppy I socialized the heck out of him, and his sister too. Petsmart every Saturday, and on daily walks "meet and greet" was a perrenial occurence. In fact, just to blow away the sceptics... for some time I joined a group of therapy dogs going to an old folks home because he was calm, friendly, and casual around all manner of dogs, people, cats, kids, etc. For months he was a perfect gentlemen amidst all manner of chaos until my schedule filled up and I had to stop going. Yes, a therapy dog. He was loved on and coddled by all manner of strangers while dogs, cats, and kids alike swirled around.

Tomorrow Hercules is going to the vet to get neutered. I have no intent to breed him and he is 19 mo. old. Although that's a little late to affect his upbringing, it's the right thing to do since I don't want any accidental breedings.

I tend to believe that when I stopped therapy dogging him, and stopped frequent socialization that that hurt his attitude towards strangers. After all, a fear biter is a fear biter, from cradle to grave. How do you explain the therapy dog. Just luck? I think not. His body language was relaxed, and he often wagged his tail when petted and rolled over on his back to receive a good belly scratch by a perfect stranger.

How does this additional data affect your response?

Yvette

By the way, as to his genetics, his parents are Xodi v. Leerburg and Monika v. Leerburg. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yvette,

It doesn't change my opinion at all. This can happen with dogs as they mature and they get feelings they don't understand. By working on the socialization you may be able to bring him back farther than you may think. Our Giant is a Therapy Dog also, and when he doesn't get to go to the hospital he gets a little testy. Same thing if he doesn't go to protection training. Dogs seem to get into a routine and if it is disrupted they can get a little goofy.

In the protection breeds there is frequently a bit of a temperament change as they mature. With care he may go back to the way he was. This was one reason why protection work was often delayed with them in the old days. It gave the temperament a chance to stabalize without the added pressure of the protection stress. With the Giants there is often a time frame from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 where they can get aggressive with their owner. It can get really ugly. Once you work through it they calm back down.

So like I daid, work on the socialization, work on the obedience, and relax a bit with him.