WOW amazing photos ingred! ty for sharing them!
and thank you so much everyone for all the feed back..i found a local trainer who is going to have me come over this sunday to test out Ace and see how he does.
He is very high drive and i worry his barking might be an issue..BUT if i tell him enough he stops. the lady i'm going to visit has titled MANY a border collie and ausi but isn't involved in the "tending" herding. forgive me if i sound like a newbe but I am
so she is going to just help me introduce livestock to ace and i'm going to suck as much info out of her as possible
I am very excited that there are multiple avenues I can give him as an outlet for his energy
this is SO VERY exciting!!!
does anyone have links the would recomend reading before i show up on sunday. i have no clue how to tell a good herding trainer from a bad one so any thought you might have as to what to watch for would GREATLY be appreciated!
thanks again!!

 Quote: betty landercasp

Introducing the dog to livestock soon is absolutely key. Cows that are yours are not prey. The dog needs to learn that usually we walk among them without chasing at all.
While Frost is absolutely super moving her calf this is not the excitement you want if you are the owner of the livestock -- we want WAY less energy, the cattle need to walk from place to place, comfortable enough to eat on the way. You need Frost power for chute work, for loading a truck, but that's once a year, twice a year. Day to day the dog "backs you up" -but you don't want the cattle in a state of terror and the dog itching to "get at 'em".
A bond forms between you, the cattle, and the dog -- the cattle need to know that you control the dog, trust that you control the dog.

FYI, the cattle were not in a "state of terror" when Frost worked them. But yes, she was enthusiastic in this photo as it was one of her first times on cattle in a large field and was not only under the direction of me but the cattle owner and the cattle owner's daughter (both of whome have put AKC Herding Championships on their dogs in addition to raising livestock). So if her conduct was harassing the stock it would have been immediately stopped. This is only a snapshot of a session where several got away and she was bringing them back to the herd.

With that said, I agree that calm and non-stressful is definately the preferred method of livestock handling and is what a handler should aspire to get with their dog.

Stephanie -

Where are you located in Texas? I would contact Linda Holloway in Oklahoma and see if she has any recommendations:

Linda Holloway
address: 230 Wilde Rd.
city: Ponca City,OK 74604
phone: 580 7667 0096
fax: same
email: bccowgirl2@poncacity.net
cost: $25.00/ dog rates adjusted as training progresses or w/frequency of lessons.
breeds: All breeds
Info: I have 2 arenas set up one w/ obstacles one w/out both w/ pens for set out and trial ready. Also have 2 fields and outrun capabilities of up to 400 yards. 60 foot round pen available. Stock available: wool and hair sheep,goats, cattle.

Another good contact in OK is Kent Herbel: http://xpranch.com/

Both Linda and Kent are AKC herding judges and Kent has worked with GSDs as well as most other herding breeds.

Here is the classified page to the Texas Sheepdog Association

I'm not familiar with everyone on the list but I'd suggest checking out Herbert Holmes or Michele McGuire.

This sounds like great fun Stephanie. I would recommend also finding a mentor who is a working rancher. I know that there are people who still work their dogs in the 'real world', especially on the big cattle ranges out west. I've seen men on horseback working cattle with dogs out in Texas and New Mexico.

Like Betty said, you don't want Ace going crazy around cattle for the majority of your time working on the ranch. Most of what you would be doing on a ranch is moving cattle from pasture to pasture, feeding or watering, or just checking on herd or calf health. If a dog is in overdrive while you're doing this nobody would benefit.

Range cattle can be very wild, and can kill a dog with a good back kick. A dog that is 'frantic' in drive could be in real trouble with this type of stock.

I've worked around livestock out west (not with them, they were just there, grazing in the National Forest lands) and I taught my dog to ignore them. They left me alone, I left them alone.

I'm with Betty on this. I'd rather have a calmer dog who has to work up to the drive needed to do twice yearly chute loading, than one that is in such high drive all the time, I can't bring him out with me when I'm doing routine tasks.

Horse and ATV savvy (and possible porcupine and snake avoidance) is another thing you'll need to work on with Ace if you're on a good size ranch or dealing with range cattle.

I'm just worried that a 'sport' trainer with a few cattle or sheep in a couple acre pen won't be able to help you out quite as well with 'real world' every day ranch work that a dog is involved with out in bush Texas.

If your goal is sport herding, by all means work with a good sport trainer. If it's daily work on the ranch type herding, find an old time rancher and learn from him or her.

Just my two cents here.

Meant absolutely nothing negative about Frost who is obviously a super dog in every way!

I was trying to be complimentary, actually. Your dog has tremendous power.

amazing amazing amazing! yes i looked at linda holloways page the other day! my folks are moving to okc in the next month and it's only a few hours away...i'd SO do the drive every weekend for a good trainer! i'll be checking all of them out..i only know one "real world" cowboy who works his cattle with a dog..but i stopped training his yearlings because he was EXTREAMLY forcfull with breakin a colt and i doubt i will be letting him have a thing to do with my dog...so i guess i could start sporty and then move to real world on my own once he and i are both trained.
i know i can call ace off of chaseing a stray cat and have him "wait" before i let him go after it again (can't stand cats pooing in my daughters sand box but don't want kitties for ace's dinner either) so i am just hoping he has just a good handle around sheep or cattle. I am SO EXCITED you have no idea..i think even more excited because i will be able to bring my daughter with me..she'd more likely be hearded by the other dogs than seen as "prey"

oh i'm in denton tx

FWIW, Ponca City is about 1.5 hours north of OKC - almost to Kansas.

What I'd do in your situation is to call Herbert Holmes. He's probably too far away from you for regualr lessons, but he's been working stockdogs for a long, long time, has competed at a national level and could point you in the right direction for your needs.

It's definitely doable with the right dog and the right trainer. I've put herding, French Ring and PSA titles on one dog (trained for Sch and MR also). And she's actually a better chore dog than trial dog, she "gets" chores. The other dog I've done the most herding with was also my Sch dog, we took a break from Sch before titles though.

The one thing I recommend is doing the protection sport foundation first. I did find some conflict going the other direction with the stick. The herding training to respect the stock stick, view it as a guidance but also correction tool, etc caused some stick issues in Sch that we had to work through. But that was really the only conflict I found.