Quote: Mara Jessup

 Quote: Webboard User

So, you don't agree with instint testing? How do you begin teaching a dog herding? I've been herding many, many years, and Im also lucky to train with some of the best in the country, if not the world, and we all instinct test.

Personally, I kinda view beginning work as a necessary evil. It is part of the process to creating a dog that is able to become a valuable working partner that will be able to handle the stock with a minimal amount of stress in the future.

I wish they wouldn't give out instinct tested letters. The problem I see with it is that it is often viewed as more letters to put behind a dogs name. People go out and do it for fun, get excited when they get it, but in reality it pretty much means that your dog has decent prey drive. And why put the sheep through it if that's all you're going to do? I mean it's one thing is your goal is to actually train your dog, but thats not always the case.

If I had a set up where I could give lessons, I'd make it a prerequisite that the person come for stock handling lessons before bringing thier dog out to do aything.

Ah. Gotcha. I agree.

Mara, interesting topic.

The moview 'Sweetgrass' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvspTBr8fss&feature=related chronicles the summer grazing of the last flock of sheep allowed to free-range graze (Forest Service lease) in the Absaroka-Beartooth wilderness (Montana in the greater Yellowstone area). Both border collies (example at :45 in the trailer) and great pyrenees (example at 1:18 in the trailer) are used, borders to herd and pyrs to guard.

Kind of gave me a whole different outlook on the herding/guarding breeds. It's a slow movie, but a very interesting look into a pretty much forgotten/gone way of life. I'd recommend it, if only to watch the dogs do some real work and for the scenery.

I think many dogs could race around in a pen with sheep. Ever seen wolves hunt elk? There's a lot of so-called herding there as well. That rottie appeared to be in hunt drive, in my opinion. Left alone in there, that sheep would've been hamstrung and eaten. I'm guessing that a real herding breed (collies and maybe a shepherd or malinois) would be less likely to go for the kill, and more likely to actually herd. Nipping at the heels is one thing. Grabbing and attempting to hamstring that ewe (the rottie was fat, slow, and had poor instincts or else he may have succeeded) is not herding, it's hunting.

I had a problem with Milan exclaiming, "this is mother nature!" I think not.

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

Mara, interesting topic.

The moview 'Sweetgrass' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvspTBr8fss&feature=related chronicles the summer grazing of the last flock of sheep allowed to free-range graze (Forest Service lease) in the Absaroka-Beartooth wilderness (Montana in the greater Yellowstone area). Both border collies (example at :45 in the trailer) and great pyrenees (example at 1:18 in the trailer) are used, borders to herd and pyrs to guard.

Kind of gave me a whole different outlook on the herding/guarding breeds. It's a slow movie, but a very interesting look into a pretty much forgotten/gone way of life. I'd recommend it, if only to watch the dogs do some real work and for the scenery.

I think many dogs could race around in a pen with sheep. Ever seen wolves hunt elk? There's a lot of so-called herding there as well. That rottie appeared to be in hunt drive, in my opinion. Left alone in there, that sheep would've been hamstrung and eaten. I'm guessing that a real herding breed (collies and maybe a shepherd or malinois) would be less likely to go for the kill, and more likely to actually herd. Nipping at the heels is one thing. Grabbing and attempting to hamstring that ewe (the rottie was fat, slow, and had poor instincts or else he may have succeeded) is not herding, it's hunting.

Leave any breed with prey drive without any herding training with sheep or goats and you end up with dead sheep or goats. Any breed.

I've seen Corgis, BC's, Aussies, GSDs, Rotts all kill stock.

Malinois? I've seen more excused from trials then actually finish a run due to harassing or seriously injuring the stock. Ive seen more Mals kill stock then any other breed as well, Mal pups as well. I witnessed a near drowing of a Mal that would let go of the sheep. They stuck a hose in the dogs mouth/nose, and it still took a while to break the grip. Unfortunately, very few trainers around here will work with Mals because of that. I'm one of the rare who will and do.

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

I think many dogs could race around in a pen with sheep. Ever seen wolves hunt elk? There's a lot of so-called herding there as well. That rottie appeared to be in hunt drive, in my opinion. Left alone in there, that sheep would've been hamstrung and eaten. I'm guessing that a real herding breed (collies and maybe a shepherd or malinois) would be less likely to go for the kill, and more likely to actually herd. Nipping at the heels is one thing. Grabbing and attempting to hamstring that ewe (the rottie was fat, slow, and had poor instincts or else he may have succeeded) is not herding, it's hunting.

That wasn't hunting. It was prey drive. Not the way I would test a dog though, especially a Rott

I love the sweetgrass movie.

FWIW, I do think some Rottweilers have potential of being useful dogs when it comes to stock work. They're not the type that are going to do huge outruns and gathers, but they can do more around the farm type work, gathering from smaller pastures, holding, driving work.

The Rott in the video clip was in a reaction/chase mode. Could he get to working mentality point? possibly. It's not uncommon to see many dogs start off about like that before it clicks and they settle down to work. But from watching that video it seemed that the point was to work out some of his energy rather than train him to work. And that is entirely the wrong reason to take a dog to stock IMO. Cesar seems fascintaed about the natural outlet for the dog, but it doesn't go further than that in that clip.

I've heard people that think it's okay for their dogs to "try out herding" and just chase the sheep because it's natural for dogs to do that - all the while disregarding the fact that what is natural for the sheep in the process is fear of the predator.

It's entirely different watching a dog with some training work. The stock respects the dog, the dog can move the stock. But the dog can also stand there/lie there and the sheep go back to grazing or whatever. My sheep respected Missy and it was fairly easy for her to handle anything that needed to be done - it was pretty quiet and orderly.

Here is a site that chronicles several training sessions for a young working bred Border CollieStarting May It's pretty cool.

The gal that trains Koenig and I in herding breeds Rotts, and titles them all in herding. She's actually had some very impressive results.

Brian- What you were saying about Mal's in the herding pen is EXACTLY why I was TERRIFIED to take my DS out for the first time. Thankfully, I've got a very experienced stockman to work with, and on top of him being experienced with sheep/stock dogs, he used to be a sentry dog trainer millions of years ago in Europe, so I was assured he could 'handle' my idiotic brindle dog.


Experience is KEY when teaching herding. Koenig will progress farther then his HCT, but I think he will be one of the few. So many, as Mara is concerned about, take the dog out for a run, and thats it.

I initially thought it was a great idea for all dogs, but after long, very very detailed PM's with Mara, she's changed my mind. It's stressful for everyone involved. Even the dog who looks to be having a great time, but does not know the rules yet- that is stress! The dogs don't know what is expected.

Here is Koenig, first time out with stock. He's come quite far, in very few sessions since this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6htY9RGplNs

I would love to try that style of herding but in the UK they will only allow new dogs to run around the outside of a small pen packed full of sheep - my dog had no interest in sheep placidly standing in a fence. He ran round on command in either direction, lie down etc but no interest in herding

My cows are WAY too mild for any herding action like Koenigs or anything like the
rottweiler on the Cesar Milan program.
I'm looking for a dog to be my long arm to coax cows to go where I want. I want my herding dog silent and to release his interest as soon as the stock begin to go where he is pushing them. I do not want predatory energy, I don't want to bring that, it wrecks my relationship with the cows. You need a REALLY GOOD DOG if you get the cattle all worked up.

I'm very happy to see this thread as I grew up around blue heelers. They were the herding dog of choice in my family because they were one of the few dogs that a 500lb sow with a litter of little ones in a plum thicket would respect. Unfornately they had to be watched around cows as they would try to bite if the cows wouldn't go when they wanted, instead of just nip because swine required a bite usually and they also were known to try and attack the dog as well. I agree that a good herding dog won't seriously haraess or hurt the stock esp. cows, sheep, and goats.(swine, well seem to be exception). In fact, it's kind of like a dance between stock and dog to who can out manueour who without the stock panicing as they are gracefully moved to whereever the handler wants. A good dog can do the work of seven men in moving stock while a untrained or poorly trained dog can make more than enough work for seven men. Every dog we had also showed no interest in livestock unless they got out or were told to round them up, and then they laid in front of the open gate to hold their charges until you could get there to close it. However once the gate was closed, it was like pig, cow, what pig? what cow?

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

You need a REALLY GOOD DOG if you get the cattle all worked up.

Couldn't agree more.