Cry if you want to, its been several months since Harry was put to sleep and last week I was going over the timeline again with the breeder, (she is putting together the data on the Horners link in the line) and I sobbed for the whole hour and a half I was on the phone to her, and the rest of the night, it is a devastating situation, we blame ourselves, and the pain never goes away.

You will get a lot of good, sound advice from the people here, some may sting, but ultimately, you WILL make the right decision for your dogs, hang in there till you get some clarity and help, it will seem overwhelming right now, and nothing I can say to you will ease that feeling, I feel so terribly sorry for you...

Some dogs, can over time & lots of work be able to live together with great vigiligence & strong OB training. Dennis has done it with his to bitches.

It took 2 1/2 years to get my female & the male that I have now to co-exist.

BUT there are some that NEVER will be able to.

You need to recognize when that is the case & decide how you will live with that. In fact you need to decdide ahead of time if you are willing to live that way if needed...anytime you bring a new dog into a household with existing dogs...be it 1 dog or 10. Or don't bring in a new dog....remebering that with each additional dog...each dog gets less individual time.

I have a unique situation, where I live with a young GSD and a senior Cairn Terrier. Add into the mix two more GSDs, who primarily live at my parents, but also spend time at my house and I bring my GSD to their house almost daily.

All four dogs can be together without incident...while there have been spats (less than 5 in 5 years), I have never had any serious fights (knock on wood). Fights that stand out have indeed been over an item.

Two things that work for me:

1. Obedience training as a group: I walk my dogs daily, with the exception of the Cairn. These are controlled walks for the most part and the dogs are put through their obedience training during the walks. This means I am walking through the neighborhood practicing sits stays, etc. with three GSDs. The training continues at home as a group.

2. I control objects. Toys are mine and they know it. One "drop it" from me and no dog even attempts to touch the toy. Example: A few days ago, my young male had a wood chip and was off running with it, teasing Kira. Kira wanted it and I could see it becoming an issue. I said "drop it" and the wood chip fell out of Vigo's mouth where it stayed.

Years ago, my females had a fight and I received advice on here that they would probably have to be kept apart, unless I changed the way I did things. Change worked wonders.

My dogs know what is expected of them and they know I don't put up with any b^llsh!t

I am having some issues now with Bogie (not neutered yet -- 10 months old) and Caesar (6-7 years old and JUST neutered). Bogie will leave Caesar alone; the reverse isn't true. Therefore, when we're all together watching TV, Caesar is on a lead tied to a heavy chest next to the couch. He is non-agressive enough that he will lay quietly on his rug. Bogie will walk a wide berth around him.

Periodically I will give both treats if they are laying down/being calm.

I am hoping that eventually Caesar will learn he can be free if he quits 'stalking' Bogie and when he starts up, he's tied down.

Could something like this work for awhile?

 Quote: melissa hoyer

Two things that work for me:

1. Obedience training as a group: I walk my dogs daily, with the exception of the Cairn. These are controlled walks for the most part and the dogs are put through their obedience training during the walks. This means I am walking through the neighborhood practicing sits stays, etc. with three GSDs. The training continues at home as a group.

2. I control objects. Toys are mine and they know it. One "drop it" from me and no dog even attempts to touch the toy. Example: A few days ago, my young male had a wood chip and was off running with it, teasing Kira. Kira wanted it and I could see it becoming an issue. I said "drop it" and the wood chip fell out of Vigo's mouth where it stayed.

Years ago, my females had a fight and I received advice on here that they would probably have to be kept apart, unless I changed the way I did things. Change worked wonders.

My dogs know what is expected of them and they know I don't put up with any b^llsh!t

This is pretty much how I manage a 5-dog household as well.

I'll admit that some of my success has probably been luck, but I have to attribute at least part of it to the fact that "not getting along" simply isn't something I consider a possibility. I'm always a little taken aback when somebody asks me if all my dogs get along. ?! They don't have any choice in the matter.

Any dog that looks crossways at another, or swipes a toy gets corrected by me in a way that means "we don't act like that in this family." It really has to be rule #1, with a zero tolerance policy for any kind of agression or dominance posturing, IMO.

I don't think dogs need to be making too many decisions in life. Certainly not about which family members they want to get along with. To me, it's no different than teaching any other house rule--where to pee, where to sleep, what you can and can't chew on, etc.

 Quote: janet dudley

... No walks together....

Hey Janet, I don’t have much to add to the excellent information you’ve received already except that I don’t think this is a good idea.

Our walks/outings are one of the most bonding times my boys experience together. I’ve never seen them enjoy each other’s company more than when they’re out, experiencing new sights and sounds together.

They all come back relaxed and “seem” to respect each other more for the fun time they’ve all shared together. I suppose if you’re experiencing altercations along the way that may be a bit different but a structured and well supervised walk is the last place I would expect to see dogs squabbling.

I think Tracy pretty much summed it along with Melissa’s quotes. For me, the thing that stands out most in your situation is:

 Quote: melissa hoyer

Example: A few days ago, my young male had a wood chip and was off running with it, teasing Kira. Kira wanted it and I could see it becoming an issue. I said "drop it" and the wood chip fell out of Vigo's mouth where it stayed.

I’ve been asked a few times why I would a take an item away that the boys “appeared” to be having a good time with – they get along so well.

I guess what might appear to many as “having a good time” is a clear onset of posturing and/or resource guarding to me. Just not allowed in my home. A good time is a couple of dogs bouncing around freely or all exercised out, off in their corners enjoying their own treat toy or item I’ve given them. (they do have a couple of tug toys that young ones play with together outside/supervised but these two get along really well with these particular toys - not so well with others).

It sounds like you have a completely manageable situation where no one needs to go anywhere. Bru needs some work/training on his manners, “out”, “no”, or whatever you have Ollie responding to. In my house a loud “Uh Uh”… pretty much stops everyone dead in their tracks.

The fact that you’ve now experienced this and seen how quickly it can happen is how a lot of that insight is developed. The next time you see a hickory nut on the ground I bet you’ll pick it up. Or when one of them gets a hold of something, or is approaching another a little assertively, you’re going to fall into that ADD club with a few of the rest of us. Up from your spot at the table, mid sentence, anticipating and removing any threat of a disagreement that may or may not have been about take place.

It’s called management and in my eyes, what makes a good leader to a pack of dogs. It sounds like you’re well on your way.

I just read all the responses since my last post. I don't have much time to get on the computer when I get home in the evenings. I want to thank everyone for their advice.

My husband and I talked for a long time last night, and we both agree that this can be managed. You're right, the pup needs better manners. Don't get me wrong, he responds well to training, but I need to work with him more on some things. I'm going to work really hard on a "drop everything and look at me" command. I guess I've been slacking with him and that is MY fault.

Last night, they were rotated, but since Ollie is pretty solid and they haven't been "aggressive" with each other except this once over something they both wanted, I would simply tell Ollie to sit/stay in the kitchen while I walked Bru out on a leash. I made Bru march straight out without even looking at Ollie. I'd release Ollie to roam freely inside with hubby as I shut the door. This went very well. Neither dog seems to have a reaction to the other passing by, so walking them together might be ok if I'm "all business".

THanks for all the support. I feel much better today...not so defeated.

This is a great thread. A couple of things stood out for me. First, I would say that you definitely need to pack walk these dogs together. At first, start with walking with your husband and have the dogs on the outside with both of you in the middle. A nice, fast pace, controlled stops. Gradually you can work them closer together until you can walk them single-handed. This will help them normalize their relationship in relation to you as the leader of the walk (and pack). Second, I would be careful having the dogs loose outside when you are grilling. I know that my dogs get excited at the smell of cooking meat. It could be that both dogs were aroused by the smell and the hickory nut set them off.

Jethro and Skipper have had a few altercations. Almost all of them have been about a bone, or treats (handler error). An odd one that is happening recently is when we are at the end of a hike and the dogs have been off leash and we are nearing the parking lot and it is time to leash up. Jethro gets leashed first and as he comes in I give him a treat as he sits. A couple of times I got completely caught off because Skipper came in close, too, and Jethro lashed out at him and Skipper lashed back. Very unusual. So I've learned my lesson. I make sure Skipper is no where near Jethro when he comes in for leashing up. The strange thing is that they have been great throughout the walk. It has just been this one moment of transition that has been a problem.

The other situation I am handling is when we are all up on the big couch. Skipper was territorial about having Jethro come up too. But I let him know this was not acceptable and last night they were lying side by side with noses almost touching, completely relaxed. It was very sweet to see.

A big part of this can be chalked up to puppies of this age often being pushy and testing limits. At 8, 9 months of age the little darling that was so cute and obedient a few months ago is now getting a big dose of hormones. He's being a "teenager."

It's not the time to give in, throw in the towel, or upset the household with new separation strategies--just my opinion.

It's the time to redouble the efforts in focusing on you, basic manners, and setting clear, fair, consistent limits. But you have to mean it. Pushy dogs will push EVERY TIME until you convince them that you really do mean what you say. Sit means sit--every time. Wait means wait--every time. Leave your brother alone means just what I said--every time.

And...it does get better as they grow out of this phase (as long as you live through it!)

 Quote: Tracy Collins

It's not the time to give in, throw in the towel, or upset the household with new separation strategies--just my opinion.

Couldn’t agree more. With a pup this age and a few fairly basic errors in conflict management/prevention, my primary focus would also be around teaching these dogs how to interact peacefully with each other.

And “errors” may be a bit strong. A lot of it is you growing as a leader while getting to know your maturing pup. He’s primed for guidance right now and you need to be providing it, not a time for (your words) slacking.

Those of us that are raising packs together have all experienced this in one form or another, somewhere along the line. My current pack has not had to go through the skin breaking fights because I didn’t “throw in the towel” when faced with a similar situation.

I think I learn a lot more from these types of situations than any of them hold on to for any length of time.

And I think that’s it. A moment in time. If you repeat the same scenario, without intervention, you will most likely get the same result. If you train today for the behavior you want to see next time, and continue to consistently reinforce their peaceful existence “together” I think you’ll end up with the results you’re looking for.

Nothing to be anxious or nervous about, in fact just the opposite. Armed with the knowledge should make you that much stronger and calmer.

I have a feeling that you’ll soon be celebrating your leadership of a cohesive pack. And like Tracy says, as they get older it really does get better, as long as you’re there guiding them in that direction.