Well, I didn't post this the first time around because I can tell you don't really want to do compulsion to get the dog to down, but this has worked on more than a few dogs I have seen.

Needed items : Backtie with either a 15 or 30 foot line preferably light, 2 prong collars, one handler with good timing.(most important item)

One prong collar is attaced to the backtie the other prong is attached to your leash. Heel the dog off and give the command about one step before the end of the backtie line.If the dog continues Dog will get an auto-correct from behind and you can continue to move reinforcing the Platz command with pops as you go forward.

First time you do this the dog will look around for the evil person holding the other prong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I prefer using the 30 foot line in an area where I can go in several directions so the dog doesn't start to anticipate, plus you have more room for doing other excercizes inbetween to relieve some of the stress.

I know you say your dog hesitates when you use compulsion, but that is from a dislike of discomfort. If he learns the fastest way to aviod pain is to hit the deck he will motivate himself everytime he hears that word. You could also do this with a flat collar if your dogs temperment warrants it. I do not recommend choke collars for this type of work, or for any for that matter.

just my $.02 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

but this has worked on more than a few dogs I have seen.

Compulsion techniques have worked since the beggining of time. But more and more trainers are training in drive these days.

Vince, I know more and more are using drive and I see no problem with that ,actually would prefer it, but no one seems to be giving any way to speed this up positively and if you know of a better way then please share. I am always looking for a new trick. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess I should have added it was always used as a last resort.

Sorry Schnauzergirl. I thought I did that. While your way suggests to the dog that the faster I down the less pain I will incur, mine suggests that the faster I down the faster I get the reward.

My first dog was 4 when I got her and had been trained with compulsion before I got her(half trained I might add)We switched to food and that worked great 95% of the time. This method of the platz in motion was the only way that worked for her. She was low drive and not into any other idea. Simply with holding her reward only created stress as she didn't understand why she wasn't getting her hotdogs for going down slow, she had been allowed to go down slow in the past.

I never had to even think about using this with Gunther because not getting MY ball is punishment in itself.

Unfortunately there is no majic pill for competitive OB. If there was, Ed would be selling it. In the meantime I am into "whatever works"

I find it odd how much of a dirty word compulsion has become lately. I do not advocate 100% compulsion based training, but even the motivational trainers I have been around had to use SOME compulsion. It is the balance in DRIVE->Compulsion-> DRIVE that makes the competitve working dog sucessful.

Schnauzergirl:

Drive – compulsion – Drive is one of the most basic rules in obedience. You have no compulsion – compulsion – no compulsion. D-C-D would be put the dog in drive with a ball (or whatever) and heel. Once the dog is in high drive. Give the down command and snap the collar down. As soon as he hits the floor he gets the ball and is put back in drive. You said your dog lacks drive. If that’s the case using the above formular the following can never be true: “It is the balance in DRIVE->Compulsion-> DRIVE that makes the competitve working dog sucessful.”

I guess I need to make a video and send it to you vince.

I should have been more specific in my example, somehow I think you have the image of a person running 90 mph and slamming the dog with two prongs. That was not my intentions.

The "low drive" dog in question would only work for food and marginally at that.

The only difference in my idea from what you have described is the presence of a second prong and a backtie. The backtie serves as an auto-correct ONLY if the dog moves past the point where the command is given. I didn't add to put the dog into drive with food/ball/whatever that was meant to be implied.

The only reason I even offered this as a suggestion is due to the fact that he asked the SAME QUESTION 3 times.

Thank you Schnauzer girl, I have not seen that technique before. As for a fast down the key word here is AVOIDANCE behavior and not punishment training. Of course Vince is right with his drive-compulsion-drive theory which we all use for heeling or other exercises. But there are no rules in dog training without exceptions. It is not always a matter of rewards in dog training; it is advantage or disadvantage, pleasant or unpleasant, comfort or discomfort. I think avoidance is a drive which requires an understanding of timing. Slow downs are usually created by the handlers lack of timing and/or indecisive actions and movements. The down position should be an absolute control position.

Alen:

"I think avoidance is a drive which requires an understanding of timing."

Timing is just one of many factors to consider. I wrote a somewhat complete list in another recent thread on corrections.

"The down position should be an absolute control position."

I agree with your thinking in pertaining to the long down. I do not with the down in motion.

Just a few thoughts for you to think about.

Vince,

Actually, avoidance is a behavior created by the defense instinct/drive which can be a powerful motivator, stronger than food or a toy. Can the dog reason the difference between two types of downs????
We always need to think about what we are doing to/with our dogs. Thanks…….