Dude... get real.. There are not many people I dislike... but your one of em now. That's BullSh*t what you just said.

Too bad that you think that. I am not once again telling anyone that they should try anything that I have said, but sharing ideas that have worked. This could veery well be a dog that could use the sharp-prong. Oh no here he goes again.....whatever, try the two ball, or trade with food. Could work, good advice. This is popular of the Gottfried approach. The reason that people use this is because of the top dogs it has produced. Well the vast majority of the top dogs that are advertised as being trained in this manner, are mostly very tough solid dogs, were trained and get ready for this in Germany with the SHARP-PRONG COLLAR, not a flat-collar or choker. A normal prong was used on some, but alot had the sharp-prong training. IT was needed and used.

Be careful of anyone that thinks they are a dog trainer and uses the term “punish”. Find a professional dog trainer to work with if you are unsure about using compulsion. Computer dog training can not replace actually being there.

Alan I was just simplifying it. I do agree thought that computer training is not the best way to go, but a great place to get ideas.

Alan
I've tried 2 ball, he'll snag both of them. Took hotdogs to get them back! That was when I first got him.

Michael, prong is how we get him to out now! He is very tough and dominant. haven't tried flanking him. I have spoken to his previous owner in Germany as to why he got rid of him. He had to get rid of all his dogs due to being hospitalized. All of our training is done with prong collars, even bitework they still wear a tab on prong in case corrections are needed, even though we use a flat for that.

One of my trainers is going to work with me on backtying him to get rid of this problem. He had to for his rottie after having 3 tennis balls in his mouth. I haven't been able to ask Ivan since they just got back and he has a seminar this weekend.

We will try your suggestion and see if we can't get this fixed. I don't want this bs carrying over to his bitework. He has very good scores and I want to keep it that way!

Ok this info helps. Still for your saftey, unless you know the owner well use caution. THere are alot of liars in the dog selling game. I would not flank him though. I do not think this is the way to go with this dog. YOu could get hurt.
This dog requires, if he is as tough as you say, I stress that so I don't have people on my back.(LOL) complusion. The back-tie is the way to go with him. It is safe for everyone involved. I would make sure that when I out him, that the pressure is heavy and just to the point that he submits a little. If he is that strong, he will recover over time and most likley the next time he will be strong again. He must understand that the ball is yours, and when you tell him to out, he must give it back. Nothing else. I would stop other work with him, so this does not splill over to other areas of his training. After doing this 40 or 50 times and he outs without any pressure then he understands that if he does not let go. you will punish him. The probelm is oer hopefully for the most part. I would make him out for 5 seconds then 10 then 20, giving him a little stress if he tries to re-bite. He understands the word, as you say he is solid in the out in the protection, which tells me that most likely there was some pressure there before, but he does not resepct you when you play. Maybe he is a high prey dog, alot of fighting drive for the ball, I don't know, but he must understand that out means let go.
If he fights you and gets aggresive then you have another problem. Has he ever fought with you or tried to bite you, or growl at you before?
I am glad to read that you have someone to help you. Good luck and let me know. WHere did this dog come from? If this does not work, and he does not show sighns or learning, then maybe a sharp-prong might be the way to go. At any cost you can use a loose sharp-prong, clip the leash to both rings, and it will pinch him without choking him. If he will tolerate a regular tight prong, and given a strong correction with the tight prong, then the sharp-prong should be no problem. But DO NOT HAMMER AWAY AT HIM WITH THE SHARP_PRONG as you could injure him as you could with the normal prong. It does not requre the force that a regular prong does. I like it on a strong dog, it is quick, not much real jerking, and the dog does not notice it as much. I am not telling you to do this, but it is an option.

Seems to me that a few years back I saw an e-collar used to fix exactly this same problem--with good results. I should note that the guy timing the corrections (and fixing their level) was an expert with e-collars.

Lou or other e-collar folks--opinions?

Pete

Michael, I am the owner of this dog. Flanking wasn't an option. We did back tie him last night because he did the same thing at training. I had him on the prong, helper had the other line. Took almost 15 min. the first time. Kept doing it until he outed. Put him up for about 10 min.brought him back out then did it again. He did out each time then. This is all we're going to do in obed. for the next couple weeks to break this habit. We did increase it each time in duration. Made him heel with it in front of his nose to get control. He has growled in the past at me when I first got him. He tried to when we went tracking about a month ago. I hand fed him for over 2 wks. Hasn't growled in awhile. Went tracking last wk and he was fine. I got him from Germany in April. We are going to work on him again tonight, will keep you posted.

You need to talk to Uncle Lou. I am not a big ecollar fan as we all know, but his methods of training could help. I think you need to surprise the dog with something, and not keep feeding him compulsion your just making him not want to give it up. If your picking the dog off the ground I hope you know your your making his bite reflex harder. You might want to try correcting down instead of up ecspecially on the pinch collar. On the two toy you should hide the toy till he comes back to you then entice him with it. Then when he outs the other toy then give it to him by throwing it this is called a line drill. Also keep him on a long lead the hole entire time so you can pull him back if need be. I also think the Dildei system wouldnt really work for you right now I could be wrong but my expierence is if dont start that way its hard to convert him over. Hope this helps but talk to Lou.

Without going to an e-collar, patience may be a virtue in this case. I would start with a toy that is new and won't automaticly bring the dog in to drive. Toss the toy and when he brings it back, grab hold of it and tell him to out and just wait until he does. The less in drive he is the shorter the period of time it will take. When you are holding the toy, don't do anything but hold it. Don't talk to him, don't pull on the toy, don't shake it, nothing. Just wait. Most dogs will get bored and release the toy.