Ok Deanna, that was kind of obviouse I guess. At any rate no matter what method a person uses you still need to be able to read the individual dog and compincate for that dog. I like different methods from different people and try to figure out what is compatable between them and use what will best compliment the dog and the training.Dog training isnt a cookie cutter process and I reserve the right to think for myself and do what works best.As I recomend to everybody.That is the difference between art and painting by numbers.Creativity!

Originally posted by Michael Taylor Rivers:
Laura you say that your husband is having ob. problems with his dog; what type of problems are you making reference to, and how could have Ivan's training helped, or maybe avoided these issues? The two nagging OB problems he has are crowding during heeling and dumbbell mouthing. I think these both would have been less problematic if the foundation work for these exercises were done using Ivan's methods. I've watched Ivan's students train dogs from scratch to heel (I'm doing it myself now with a puppy), and you don't get crowding.

One thing that is important in Ivan's OB training is that there is that there is no progression at all unless there is correctness. In other words, you don't tolerate days, weeks, or months of dumbbell mouthing while teaching the retrieve and then try to fix the mouthing later. And you don't tolerate crowding when teaching heeling and then try to fix it later. This is not unique to Ivan of course... many good dog trainers practice this.

Laura

No one was more amazed than me, Laura. I never expected to see dogs with dead tails (not wagging), no joy, shying from handlers, etc. There was one nifty dog that had a fabulous attitude, but the rest are so repressed, it absolutely shocked me. It wasn't at all what I had expected to see.

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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:

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Originally posted by David Morris:
Im not sure what Lee is talking about unless it is the part where Ivan only rewards after the realease.

No, I mean the constant use of "uh-uh, no, what are you doing???, uh-uh" etc. to tell the dog that the behavior he is offering is not the one that you will reward. It clearly takes the wind right out of their sails but quick. These are obviously some very sensitive dogs. In fact, one little mal gets downright scared and avoids his wife when she returns to the dog and reaches for the leash. Not to mention the fact that all the NRMs are applied very late.

What I have also heard is that Ivans method works very well on Malinois as many of them are handler sensitive dogs. Many Mals do not require the whole world to crash down on them as thier nerves are shall I say a bit thinner then alot of the GSD from working lines. So the constant Uhnno works well as a correction. The dog almost panicks so to speak, which kills the drive, and creates a dog that is correct and fast, more from nerves not drive. With certain dogs, that have high drive to release the pressure this gives a picture of correctness and speed when called for. The wagging of the tail and the dog that is really up and happy is gone. I am not saying that it is wrong or that one way is better then the next, just what I have observed. The way he trains is not that different then the older Germans. The means to the end result may be a different, but the result is the same to a degree. The dog heels when asked, not tricks or ball hiding, and when the handler says the exersise is over then we can play. Many older Germans train like this. Some newer ones too. the only difference is the means to the end. More pressure is involved to get the dog to the stage of where he panicks a bit. But I have also heard that Ivan uses the electric on dogs that do not grasp the Uhnnnooo by itself.

I feel the need to post this...Ivan Balabanov is a GREAT trainer, helper, and handler! His results speak for themselves. If you ever get the chance to work with him, do not let the opportunity pass.
-Greg

>>>>He simply uses operant conditioning, no mystery to it. The only part I didn't like was his excessive use of the non-reward marker (NRM). <<<<<

I have to jump on this. OPERANT CONDITIONING is NOT a training methodology. It is a theoritical ...with good evidence to support it... discription of how animals learn. I have said this a million times but among dog people it has grown cultish to say that you use operant conditioning, usually meaning less compulsion, often infering the use of the clicker. Virtually all types of learning and dog training can be discribed by the theory of operant conditioning. that is what it is for.

Isn't that exactly what I said, Kevin - that I can't see how he has a "method"??? He simply applies OC in a knowledgeable way (which I will say that 85% of the dog trainers I've met do NOT!). OC absolutely should NOT be confused with "purely positive" or clicker training. They both employ only part of OC.

Yeah. . .only PART of OC. . .they forget to PRONG THE HELL OUTTA THOSE LITTLE BASTARDS!!


Oh. . .oops. Did I say that out loud? Ahh, hmmm, I better stop.

>>>>>>Isn't that exactly what I said, Kevin - that I can't see how he has a "method"??? He simply applies OC in a knowledgeable way <<<<<

Yep, that's what you said, I'm just agreeing with you and using it as a spring board to get up on my soapbox Lee. I hope everyone that trains dogs for work or sport will pull their heads outta their rears and see that all the talk about operant conditioning is....for the most part....either salesmanship for their "method" or theoretical hogwash without any imperical evidence to stand behind their opinions about how to train a dog.
This is a bit off topic but what the heck. I think Ivan would agree.