I don't recommend the food in the mouth technique. Yup, it gets a dog looking up, but since it is a lure, you never know if the dog is looking up cuz of the lure or cuz he understands that it is what earns his reward -where ever that reward may be. We have a 12 wk old pup just joined our club and yesterday was his second visit. We showed the owner how to reinforce eye contact and already on this second visit, I heeled with that puppy (and he doesn't have a clue yet what heel is) with eye contact with my left hand hanging right by his head and full of ham. He totally ignored the food by his head and stared at me, cuz that's what wins. That's the kind of understanding I want - looking at the reward will NEVER earn it, only looking at me. When my dogs are in a front position, I can wave the ball or food all over in front of their face, pass it back and forth from one hand to the other, over their head, and they still look at me. However, I don't teach eye contact as a separate command. I teach it as a requisite for whatever behavior I am teaching, so heeling is ONLY rewarded if it is correct position AND eye contact, fronts are ONLY rewarded if they are close, straight, AND with eye contact.

Lee, what method do you use to teach that? I am working w/my new pup right now and would appreciate any insight you have to offer. Thanks!!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ya Lee spit it out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I'm in that stage too, looking for the right way.

Ivan Balabanov's new tape has a nice segment on this approach.

In short, the dog or pup gets the reward for looking at you instead of looking at you for the reward. When the dog learns that he gets rewarded for eye contact, he wont bother to go for the tug that's being dangled in front of him. If he chooses the distraction and wins it, the toy becomes dead and the behavior is marked with a negative command. In the beginning, the reward comes almost immeadiatly after the correct behavior. Later it's a half step with eye contact and reward.

While the food in the mouth may not work for all dogs, it is worth trying for many. I know dogs in the top levels of obedience who learned using this method and are doing well. Since ALL lures are faded over time, it's not that you use food forever. And actually when you can fade it and use a toy that you can keep 'hidden' in your back pocket that helps with some drive. And then you can even fade that.

There are many methods that work, and like to see my girls having FUN as much as I can when training. Especially initially and for a new behavior. Maybe my girls are different from other dogs, but they seem to love having hotdogs spit at them alot better than when I have to pop their prong collars! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Take your dog back to the basics....it never hurts. I like to start with the toy under my chin so that the dog begins to learn to look at my face... big praise and animated walking when the dog looks at me. Then a quick free and release of the ball. Then space the time longer before release of the ball. I will also change my direction and correct the dog when he is not paying attention to me so he learns to focus on me and my movement. I will then move the toy under my armpit and continue to reward only with eye contact. I like the ball under the arm so that when I reward the dog the ball drops straight down.... it helps keep him back where I want him to be.

Thanks for the info all, the ball seems to work better. Tryed the hot dog and she follows my hand knowing I got something in it.

Jenn, who said anything about pops on a prong collar??? Our dogs are DEFINITELY having fun, cuz they understand how to control US. They know what pushes our buttons and causes us to reward them.

We don't avoid the issue of the dog knowing where the reward is; we meet this problem head on, resolve it, and then it's never an issue again - for example, with this new pup, I had both hands full of ham and biljac, and I just let my hands hang at my side. Of course the puppy nuzzles, bites, claws at your hands first. Good, cuz he finds out after a couple minutes that that behavior doesn't work for him - he gets ignored and can't get the food out. But I catch a split second of eye contact, mark it with my conditioned reinforcer ("yes" or clicker) and THEN he gets the food. In half a dozen reps, the eye contact is coming faster and faster and he's only occasionally sniffing my hand anymore. Pups aren't stupid - why beat your head against a locked door when you have the key? Every time he looks up, he gets reinforced. This owner did his homework and so after only a week, the pup was going from person to person and staring raptly at each one for many seconds, driving each person to reinforce him.

We make sure the owners generalize this behavior at home to many different situations, cuz they will learn it more quickly if it is repeated under many different conditions. So before the pup gets to come out of the crate, he must look. Of course he fights tooth and nail to get out at first...but eventually he quits for just a second and looks at you, and you better be on your toes to mark it and then release him. Same with his dinner, getting out of the kennel, getting to come in the house, whatever he wants to do. Any effort to take a short cut and go straight to the reward, whether it's in your pocket, your hand, whatever...is simply blocked and ignored. They do give up when it's never successful and they realize there is a way to MAKE you reward them.

I guess what it boils down to is stop trying to trick the dog into looking - let him know exactly where the reward is. So what? Let him try to get it; when he can't, and you show him how he can MAKE you give it to him, he'll stop paying direct attention to the reward and focus on what YOU want him to do to earn it.