I was going to say yes but remembering the last chiropractor visit, she said his neck was pretty out...it doesn't explain the other pushy behavior like with the harness and stuff. Hmmm maybe his neck got messed up from him trying to shove me with his head. But seriously, it possible the neck being out could have something to do with it.

I have thought about using a sensation type harness on him...take him out and then turn him away from distractions and mark good behavior...if I had money to buy one that is. I used to have a haltie and we worked on it a lot but he hated it so bad I gave up. I have never been fond of halties anyway because turning their heads isn't good for their necks.

Yes, I went through a few days of desentisizing training with Jethro and now he accepts the halti fine. I use both harness and halti because it spreads out the force when he makes a lunge. I like the halti because I'm actually using less pressure to get control, I simply put upward pressure and he can't move forward with his nose up in the air. It has really been a combined effort though, teaching him that putting pressure on the leash puts the brakes on. And me learning to use my sense to help him get past high arousal situations without lunging.

That, and also playing with him to get him to work with me by voice, body language and hand gestures instead of always trying to control him with the leash. When I used the prong, I just used it like power steering to get him to change direction, leave something alone, etc. I didn't realize how much pressure I was putting on him, and how stressed he was getting, until I stopped doing that. He is so much calmer and easier to handle now.

I would never have figured this out on my own. I had the help of an experienced behaviorist who helped me to see how I was contributing to Jethro's arousal by inflicting pain right when he was going over threshold, and the ways I was letting him use his energy to push me around.

The most beautiful thing about this recent transformation in my handling skills is that I find myself truly enjoying my dog and laughing with him, instead of walking in the house frustrated and in tears because he had almost jerked me off my feet (or actually succeeded).

My dog doesn't lunge, he just stares intensely (some call it targeting). I tend to avoid dog walkers because of their stupidity about turning them loose...so I don't work on this enough. I had that behavior almost gone at one point. All I did then was correct him for ignoring me and then playing/feeding him and engaging him. I don't necessarily correct him for glancing I just refocus him. I'm going to try and find a way to get that harness...I'd rather just turn him and play than correct him and play. I want to make it less stressful...less pressure.

What you did with Jethro sounds right not only because of his size but if that was making him worse. Putting pressure on a dog that is aggressing usually brings out more. I don't want to pressure my dog with ignoring distractions either.

Just for the record, I don't mean to sound like all I do is jerk the crap out of him for everything. I rarely correct him like that, mostly its just a tap-tap "hey refocus". But there are times he deserves it like a bullheaded change of direction on a walk trying to pull me NFW, he gets a correction for stuff like that.

I don't know how much slack I should allow him. I don't want to bully him. I hate being a fascist and controlling everything in his life...on the other hand if I let him get away with anything, he gets pushy right away and that leads to the growling, shoving or guarding. By slack I mean: when I clean his kennel I let him run in the yard on a long line and chew on a toy...normally I don't let him "possess" toys (don't laugh). But I want him to just be a dog sometimes...is this ok or not?

Just a couple of things to throw out....

I've adopted a couple "problem" Dutch shepherds (yours is beautiful, by the way) as if they weren't big enough handfuls in the first place. You probably already know that they are known for going up the lead (especially if unfair corrections are given)and they'll take 100 miles if you give them an inch. (Well, that's a general dog trait for many!)

Is he truly dominant or "just" a Dutch shepherd doing what Dutch's do?

I won't speak point-to-point but the general feeling I got from your posts "feels" like structural issues and maybe confusion on expecations (????).

How would you "read" yourself when he reacts inappropriately? If he gets you nerved up, and senses it, he's won and knows he can again.

As for collars and corrections, my present Dutch, when in drive, will re-direct (reflex in drive) on prong. He handles differently on flat collar and completely differently off lead.

Along with lots of exercise, do you keep him MENTALLY stimulated every day? Give him new things to learn to use that intelligence for good instead of evil? (Working together obviously helps build and tighten a bond of partnership and trust.)

Sorry if I'm off-base here. I just get the sense that it's a big picture thing and not dominance. (As you know, the breed isn't foo-foo. They can't be "handled" like a lot of other dogs. I hope no one shoots me for saying that!)

I don't know anything specifically about Dutch Shepherds Tresa, but if you have a high drive dog thats a little sensitive, something like the way your putting on the collar can, in his mind, come accross as strongly as an attack on him. Nothing about dominance, more a bit of self defence. He's spun up, running around. You lose patience and try to grab him looking angry and maybe yelling, that type of thing.

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I blocked him and corrected him (prong), then played with a kong. As soon as I stopped playing he resumed...I corrected him again hard and he turned snapped, showing his teeth at me...so I had to choke him again then played tug with the drag leash, then he was focused again.

This kinda sounds to me like your too late with these corrections and he's redirecting on you out of frustration. Spend more time keeping his focus on you before you put him in a position of having to regain his focus because he's staring at whatever.

These types of things need to be trained in a controlled, setup manner. Its generally too tough in the beginning to help in random situations when your doing anything else.Be patient, no emotion, and use distance.

Thanks you too.

Sharon:

The reason I think he has a dominant temperament is ex: when I am not super strict on not letting him possess toys, like in the past left them in the yard and let him find and have them while I was working outside...he starts to test-guard them from me by growling or showing teeth. I leave a drag line on him so in those cases I corrected him, accept once when I shoved him into a wall NO! (after that he stiffened up grrr...and I did it again instantly and then he was sucking up, I know I could have been bit) Other people he acts dominant to them by default, aloof, proud posture, tries to mark them etc. I just don't let him.

Other than that, he's a normal, hyper, pushy, manipulative, PITA Dutchie :-) I have previous exp with several working bred GSDs and Dutchies. They were all similar but softer and more submissive (not soft like a golden but for a working dog if that makes sense).

Other than daily exercise, he gets one or two training sessions and a play session at the end. Sometimes I run out of ideas, we both get bored...limited resources...I wish I had more DVDs and dog club to train with.

I feel myself reacting badly if I am ill prepared as far as treats go. I'm of course annoyed at the situation not him but..when he obsesses over a dog I get frustrated and then he whines and shudders at the dog "hmmmmmmmm...hmmmmmm...hmm". His insanity and mine are somehow linked together.

Steve:

Today I was prepared with enough food to work on that. I was at the field doing heeling with a rope kong reward. Then that same dog was there again. As soon as I saw it I called his name...I waited and he looked at me only seconds later YES, food. Did it a few times and he ignored the dog. I got closer to the dog, he stared staring. I did the same. Same result also did sit down stand. I was correcting him too late before. This time I decided to see what he would do without correcting at all.

Normally putting on a collar has a routine. Sometimes I am not sure if I am playing games with him or he is playing mind games with me. He has to get on the back porch, sit and hold still. When he's real spastic I wait and if he starts down the steps I say no, back....he backs up and sits, I move towards him and he stays or if he starts to move I stop and wait until he corrects himself by sitting. I really think he enjoys it sometimes. He obsesses over a toy out of site he knows is there, that's why he wants up. Today he was very good and sat there while I put it on.

Ok I forgot what I was getting at. The collar thing is definitely an on-off issue so it could be his neck actually and he's defensive about it...and he's spastic. I've also gotten annoyed with him too...and he is VERY annoying some days LOL

Tresa,

I am NO expert in dominant dogs, but I do like what a pro trainer of these beasts (for whom I have tremendous respect for her methods) said of using the word dominant: too many people use the word dominant when that word is just masking behavioral or training problems. That just made sense to me.

As for running short sometimes on ideas, I hear ya. I live in a small house and in an area with uncooperative weather most of the year. But there's my DS, full of p*** and vinegar, ready to go every second of the day.

Aside from exercise and daily OB, we do a lot of trick training. I can't take him to clubs for the more "traditional" route, and I wasn't crazy about "tricks," but I'll tell you what: he digs it because he's interacting and learning and bonding and building trust.

He is so quick, I only have to show something once (occasionally two or three times), so this helps MY boredom as well since I have to plan out in my mind how to teach something--if I teach it incorrectly: oops, it's in the vault.

He has impulse control problems with aggression and this trick stuff has also helped him think before he reacts (looks to me). Of course, launching into OB work when he's finding it just a little too hard to do the right thing has also had its merits!!

As a result, I have PAGES of things he knows with both verbal and non-verbal commands for each task. We also connect some of the things together for impromptu "routines." He's become a cooperative partner. (Though still a work-in-progress.)

He was the kind of dog that DS pros called "just a very tough dog" and wasn't sure if he could be placed or find the right home. And he's come so very far.

You obviously are committed to him. DSs are big on respect. Give it to him, you'll get it back.

Don't know if this makes sense, but if you were to "start over" with him, do you know what you would do differently?

Time and patience.

And YEA! for you both on his behavior upon spotting the other dog!!!! Obviously, you both have it in you to change things!

Another thing, too. Once that object-guard becomes a thing of the past, indoor searches are great for them. We do several a day (and in the yard, too); uses mental and physical energy. You commented on your neighborhood, so venues for eventual and actual tracking work doesn't seem likely.

You know first off, you just gave me an idea. There's a hardware store that is very dog friendly. I bet if I asked them, they'd let us do a building search (on leash of course) to find a hidden tug. I'd let one of them hide it for me if possible...yadda yadda.

One problem here is due to my disability, I have to stay with my parents...they don't allow him in the house (even though they let my chow-mix). Its a huge burden to me to have to get dressed, go outside just to interact for 5 minutes if I want to. So I can imagine, if he was house dog, we would do even more stuff. It would be easy, I can confine him to my room, crated when gone, no access to the rest of the house ever...he wouldn't even bother him, be happy and stay clean!!

Anyway I really should teach him more tricks, get a sm hoop and finish teaching the sit-up and beg (that ones hard, he's a klutz).

I forgot to tell you this adorable cute Dutchie thing he does, when I say "heel" he bites my jacket or leg once then otherwise heels perfectly. Oh and if lazy he just snaps. LOL

I guess the only thing I would change would be myself before I rescued him. I didn't know what was wrong and he even saved me really. But I think that's why I have him, he helps me everyday.

I was unaware that he is kept outside and therefore, limited. Glad that you gave him a home, but they need interaction, too. Pent up energy and frustration can create behavioral issues.

As for the biting/nipping/snapping, he's learned that you accept that. Could be that if he only does it first time and he doesn't get much "you" time, that it's his excitement, but still, I'd curb any behavior that involves unsolicited teeth or snapping.

As for him being a clutz with the sit-up: while in a sit, have him give you front paws and softly rest the bottoms of feet on your palms until he gets balanced on his butt, then very slowly make like you are pulling your hands away--and feel if he's counter-acting your movement by re-shifting his weight; when he does, tell him 'stay.' The second he's hands-free, mark and reward. He'll get the balance and duration down quickly.

Remember not to get frustrated or tell him 'no' if he does something wrong. Training needs to be fun!

(I use the verbal "be a bear" and the non-verbal is raising your hands palms up together.)

Good luck and HAVE FUN! And remember, if you can make the time, these beasts can learn at least one new thing every day! Just continue to work with him. I guarantee he's very eager!