Quote: Tanith Wheeler

What you need to do is work on the aggression outside of the home first - if it's less severe you can use it as a springboard for the more difficult rehabilitation.

Work on engaging him, maintaining his focus despite distractions - gradually building up the level of humans that are passing him.

Then you need to work on guests in the same way, have him ON LEASH in the yard have a person open the gate and reward focus etc.

Search desensitising on this forum - there's more advice there than I can give ya now.

Think about it this way - yes you can correct every unwanted act of aggression and you'll end up with a dog who will stay out of your reach to threaten someone. However, if you teach your dog an alternate behaviour - i.e. a guest, that means go to crate and get a treat or a guest, that means run to mum/dad and sit quietly... the dog will learn a better behaviour and it'll change the way your dog responds rather than just mask the problem with 'the right collar' - the e-collar has its place during training but it's better to redirect than correct.

Great post. Desensitize and desensitizing on "advanced search," expanding the date range to a couple of years.

Ditto on the bribe thing and allowing him loose with helpless guests!

I had a Dutch Shepherd rescue named Ali and she was a lot like your dog. VERY aggressive towards people (and objects) she deemed weird. It was fear based but no doubt she would bite in an instant or turn and flee and hit the end of the leash. Unfortunately for us I was not done working on desensitizing her when she was killed by an irresponsible vet.

Even if I got her to do well for a while I would NEVER have her off leash around guests for their sake. She was never off leash period, always used a long line on her.

The reason Mondo is worse with the yelling is it just pumps up his adrenaline even more...esp fear based aggression. My chow mix was a fearful dog and was VERY aggressive (in display only) at the door. Ignorantly we used to yell at her to shut-up but it only made her worse.

Good luck and you'll get a lot of help here.

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Ditto on the bribe thing and allowing him loose with helpless guests!

I had a Dutch Shepherd rescue named Ali and she was a lot like your dog. VERY aggressive towards people (and objects) she deemed weird. It was fear based but no doubt she would bite in an instant or turn and flee and hit the end of the leash. Unfortunately for us I was not done working on desensitizing her when she was killed by an irresponsible vet.

Even if I got her to do well for a while I would NEVER have her off leash around guests for their sake. She was never off leash period, always used a long line on her.

The reason Mondo is worse with the yelling is it just pumps up his adrenaline even more...esp fear based aggression. My chow mix was a fearful dog and was VERY aggressive (in display only) at the door. Ignorantly we used to yell at her to shut-up but it only made her worse.

Good luck and you'll get a lot of help here.

Big ditto.

Also to the O.P., after you look at some of the threads on desensitizing, we'll be happy to answer any/all questions and also help work out how the marker training got off on the wrong foot.

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

What you need to do is work on the aggression outside of the home first - if it's less severe you can use it as a springboard for the more difficult rehabilitation.

Work on engaging him, maintaining his focus despite distractions - gradually building up the level of humans that are passing him.

OK. I will have to find places where there are people; part of the problem (or lack of problems so far, maybe) is that we usually walk in the woods and after dark, so we really don't see many, but I can take him downtown on weekends and just walk down sidewalk. Actually starting in winter and working up to summer might work really well, being in Norttern Wisconsin. We'll go from hardly anybody to crowds of people.

What do you think about the begininning obedience? It starts on Jan 11. It might be a place where a little bad behavior might be tolerated (not dangerous, I'll hold him back, but obviously a beginner at work). I"m so torn about that. I talked to the trainer, and she said it was OK, but she was a little bit rambling and not really who I'd pick as a role model, but I'd like to use the situation and maybe get some people to stare at us and stuff--IF it would be helpful.

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Then you need to work on guests in the same way, have him ON LEASH in the yard have a person open the gate and reward focus etc.

I guess no matter what, if I want to know for sure if he will listen to me, I will have to try that at some point.

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Search desensitising on this forum - there's more advice there than I can give ya now.

Great, thanks--that's the word I need.

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Think about it this way - yes you can correct every unwanted act of aggression and you'll end up with a dog who will stay out of your reach to threaten someone. However, if you teach your dog an alternate behaviour - i.e. a guest, that means go to crate and get a treat or a guest, that means run to mum/dad and sit quietly... the dog will learn a better behaviour and it'll change the way your dog responds rather than just mask the problem with 'the right collar' - the e-collar has its place during training but it's better to redirect than correct.

Well, it's hard to correct him anyway when he won't let me catch him, and there is no way in hell I'd hurt or shock a dog at the same time that he is threatening to kill somebody--I wouldn't want to be responsible for that going wrong. I know now that even yelling was stupid. I jsut didn't know, and it's the first instinct. Yes, coming to me, that's what I want.

Thanks a lot, this is the kind of stuff I wanted to know--how people with the philosophy of this site, which I like a lot, would handle this. Just let me know what you think about the obedience class, considering that I will have a prong collar w/back up on him, and will be very aware of the potential problems. Could I make him worse somehow?

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

Jenny, I lost my post to you; I will recreate later. It maybe too long or something, lol, I'm not sure why it's not showing up. Thanks.



MOD NOTE: FIXED; see above.

Thanks; sorry about that.

"Well, it's hard to correct him anyway when he won't let me catch him, and there is no way in hell I'd hurt or shock a dog at the same time that he is threatening to kill somebody--I wouldn't want to be responsible for that going wrong."

This can never ever be allowed to happen. The responsibility is containment/control.

I'm not at all jumping on you; I'm trying to make 100% sure that this point is solid ... not just with you, but anyone reading anonymously and dealing with a similar issue.

The dog cannot have this opportunity.

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

I can take him downtown on weekends and just walk down sidewalk.

You need to read some desensitizing threads.

It starts with keeping the dog outside his reactive zone. Downtown sidewalks wouldn't be a starting point. The people are way too close, too numerous, too outside your control, too everything for this stage.

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

Rovena, I agree with Tanith Wheeler and redirection may be a good idea. The country where I live, the circumstances and the culture necessitates a dog that has to alert and hold strangers. I will never own a dog that I think will never be aggressive to any one. But that is the world I live in.

I totally understand. I actually do appreciate his intentions, and really don't want to completely change him. I have to admit, I think it's pretty cool how he instantly knew he was home, and decided to protect it. It just took me by surprise, the intensity of it. Also, he is so good about not running the fence and being a pain to everybody just taking a stroll. It really is mostly in very appropriate circumcstances--people coming up to the house. I can tell the difference in his bark from inside, how near the person is. So he is potentially very useful.

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Aggression with out permission is not a behaviour I handle with markers. I want to extinguish that behaviour of "Aggression with out permission" , just like how I train the dog to not eat his food until I say it is OK.

I would like to be able to do that. That is really my goal.

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I can easily train the same behaviour using markers but I choose not to because in my opinion the way in which the dog learns the behaviour has an effect on how he sees me.

I am not trying to defend myself , but I do not abuse or hit or prong collar correct or e collar correct my dog every day. All it takes is to teach them the lesson when they are little and it becomes a habit.

I understand. I think that would work if you are starting from the beginning, and have control over the situation. I let it get out of control. If I have to pull him back with a prong collar so that he can learn not to attack people when he shouldn't be attacking, it will save his life too. One bad bite may be then end of him. I never hit my dogs, but I am not philosophically opposed to training collars; I realize now that they are not abuse if used correctly. (LIke I said, I've learned a lot here the past couple months--it's just putting it into action that is difficult.)

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Coming to your problem, Your dog must know some behaviour that is incompatible with aggression to start with.

A total down with the head on the floor or a sleep lying sideways can be taught first.

He knows several basic commands very well. Sit, down, even stay.

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With my dogs, it is always "Good boy, you did a good job, now you come back to me".

Yes, acknowledge that they have shown you potential danger and have done the right thing so far, I read that.

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When the stranger appears, my dogs go nuts and are up on two feet barking at the stranger. I come out and say "Good puppies, good job" . "Now that is enough" or "come to me" .

That's perfect. (As long as they haven't the person bitten yet.)

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Let us assume that they refuse to come back to me , I will say BAD BOY!!! (Bad boy has been associated with physical correction before). So when I say BAD BOY!!!. Previously when my dog was on a leash, and aggressively lunged towards a stray or a human, I would have given him a strong prong correction twice or thrice, each time saying "BAD BOY".

I'm lacking that part. I am not much of a corrector; I let him correct himself with the prong collar, that's the most I've ever done, and I never had a prong collar on a dog before him. I may have to work on myself too. I don't know if I can do it. I'll start small.

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I am a novice and take my advice for what it is worth. But I cannot fathom a dog that can be genuinely aggressive(I desire that quality) and can be called off reliably with out a degree of compulsion.(ofcourse before latching on to some one, my dogs have never been allowed to latch on to any one i.e. bite)

Watching some of Ed's videos, I am getting the idea that aggression such as in police dogs is not totally controlled even in a very well-trained dog. I plan on being careful.

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Once you are in that frame of mind, your dog will sense it whether you are requesting him to knock it off or commanding him to knock it off.

It takes self-discipline too. You can't give discipline that ou don't have. So it's commendable that your dogs have reached a point where they obey you and still love you.

Thanks again.

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

Oh yea, I remember something else I wanted to ask: Should I take him to a basic obedience class? I'm not that interested in what the teacher would do, having discovered marker-training, but the socialization aspect of it. Or would that not be a good idea?

Thanks!

IMO, no. I agree with your hesitation.

It will be available again, right? You could have a ton of desensitizing work under your belt in a few months.

 Quote: SamanthaTopper

I got a dog from a shelter that behaved a lot like you describe. He wasn't accepting of me when I first got him home and hid under my bed growling and acting like he'd rip anyone open that dared touch him. It lasted all night and half the day until he was willing to come out to go use the bathroom.

After that he was stuck to me like glue and desperate to please me. When I'd take him to the fenced in park we lived close to he'd run off, I'd call his name, and I could see him looking around to find me. He'd get a happy look on his face and run as fast as he could right for me. He'd lean on me, stare at me adoringly, follow me around whenever I'd get up.

Sadly I was too young and stupid to understand how to really help him. I decided to have him put to sleep after he attempted to climb the fence and attack my neighbor. He didn't mind the children, but the grown man was another story. I regret my decision even today. I'm really glad to see that you're not willing to make my mistake.

It can be so difficult. I'm sure you did what you thought you had to at the time. We have to live and learn. I'm sure all of our pets that we had when we were younger are not as well off as the ones we have when we are more experienced, and probably everybody has some guilt and regret. (I think about the cats I let live outside and get killed, the dog who jumped out of an open window in my car, etc. Dumb stuff on my part that an animal had to suffer for.)

I think your dog was much worse than Mondo, the way you are describing him, and possibly had been abused and permanently scarred. Mondo is not a vicious dog in his heart, if that makes sense. A chihuahua that roams the neighborhood attacked his face before I could stop it, and he just pulled back in surprise. It's possible that your dog would have seriously hurt somebody. I guess we shouldn't have regrets about the past, not knowing what trouble we avoided on the road not taken. So I hope that you are not too hard on yourself about that.